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You gotta love this guy

by Paul Eisen
Saturday, May 19th, 2012

“I am Muhammad Ali,
 a free name –
it means beloved of God –
and I insist people use it
when people speak to me
and of me.”

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Posted by on May 19, 2012. Filed under Ideology,Religion. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.

81 Responses to You gotta love this guy

  1. Gilad Atzmon

    May 19, 2012 at 2:16 pm

    Everything is so simple really. He wasn’t exactly a Guardian reader:)

  2. searching

    May 19, 2012 at 2:26 pm

    He has much more down to earth wisdom then a guy interviewing him.
    Q; “Who want to spot out yourself and kill your race”?
    A: ???

  3. Paul Eisen

    May 19, 2012 at 2:45 pm

    This guy’s been my hero since I was sixteen and I’ve noticed I’m not alone – Sixteen year olds today still love him.

  4. Jonathon Blakeley

    May 19, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    Parkinson (A Yorkshire man) is a fantastic human being and an inspiration to us all. I only wish his guest was as enlightened.

  5. Paul Eisen

    May 19, 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Yes, he is fantastic. I particularly admired his honesty.

  6. Somoe

    May 19, 2012 at 3:22 pm

    As the product of miscegenation myself, I find M.Ali’s pronouncements quite xenophobic. Since time immemorial people have traveled the globe and mingled with other cultures, ultimately enriching humanity with influences that have helped us evolve and understand one another better. It is well accepted fact that hybrids are inherently stronger and better suited for survival. I am surprised, nay shocked to hear him spout such utter nonsense.

    • Loren Franklin

      May 19, 2012 at 5:03 pm

      Put it in context: that being the 1960s in America, where he and a white woman would have been breaking the law in many states by being married; where he and his white wife would have been the objects of discrimination and hatred everywhere they turned. Then think about why he might want to escape a life of torment and abuse because he chose to couple with a woman of a different race. Any man wanting a peaceful and happy life in racist America would chose to stay in his own race. Can he be blamed for choosing the path of happiness, the path of least resistance; one which would make his life richer and more fulfilled? It is easy for us to judge from the year 2012 how those before us should have believed, but is it right for us to attempt to impose today’s beliefs and mores on a people or person who lived in the past; one who lived in Jim Crow America with all it’s hatred of its Black men? Ali had a habit of being brutally honest, and sometimes honesty from another’s life experience and point of view needs to be viewed from his/her shoes. America was, and still is a racist place. My father married an American Indian woman — my mother — and she had to put up with a great deal of BS from his family for being Tsa la gi. Some people chose to make life easier on themselves by staying within their own race. He is not saying that whites are bad: he is simply saying that he wanted a better life by escaping the pitfalls of cross-race marriage.

      When I was in the Army (a Wall Street Mercenary) I was friends with a young man named David Pickle. David grew up next door to Ali’s training camp, and he used to ride his bike beside Ali when he ran, as part of his training. When the run ended, Ali used to open a bottle of wine and sit on the front steps of the place he trained at, and he would give all the boys who flocked around him tiny sips out of his bottle. David told me that Ali was one of the most wonderful men he had ever known. All those boys were white, and Ali treated them like gold. He said that the man was completely different than the person he invented for the television. Sometimes honesty from a black man who has lived the Black experience can be upsetting to those who have never walked in his shoes. He’s always been a hero of mine.

      But I am also fond of you, Somoe.

      • Somoe

        May 19, 2012 at 5:38 pm

        Thank you for elucidating, Loren. It is important to put things in context and understand what caused them to be so. I can look at this with more understanding (if not necessarily acceptance) now.

        I was surprised by his views because Islam is renowned for its ability to embrace all ethnicities, and cross cultures, and i thought he was a muslim.

    • Gilad Atzmon

      May 19, 2012 at 5:14 pm

      Hi Somoe, I think that you, Paul and MA are all right. and to the point, there is nothing wrong in tribalism or even segregation as long as it is not celebrated on the expense of others. This debate is actually very relevant to some issues we are engaged in for more than a while.

      We all support hybridization, but tolerance means also accepting that some oppose it. Ant then, if we accept MA’s argument we must also accept that his argument is also universal. We can even think of it as right wing ethics.

      • Paul Eisen

        May 19, 2012 at 5:27 pm

        “We all support hybridization”?

        I hope that’s a royal ‘we’.

      • searching

        May 19, 2012 at 7:16 pm

        I kind of agree with Gilad. Why those who are supposedly soo tolerant of mix- and match version are not tolerant of the no- mix- and- match version??
        It has nothing to do with being xenophobic. There are some people ,who value privacy and peace and quiet. It is their choice and there is nothing wrong with that.
        There are others, who are very sociable, accept everybody anytime ,and that’s fine too. As long as the whole neighborhoood doesn’t hear that till late at night.
        If you don’t invite strangers in your house does it make you xenophobic???
        If you prefer not to assocaite with them beacuse you don’t feel like that does it make you xenophobic??
        Most of good people ,all over the world ,are usually friendly for strangers.
        They will oftentimes host the strangers , even for free in their houses, share food with them , show them around, etc,but it does not mean they would like a foreginer to marry his/her son or daughter.

        • Roy Bard

          May 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm

          “but it does not mean they would like a foreginer to marry his/her son or daughter.”

          So why do they sound like members of Lehava?

          The Lehava organization’s goal is to “save the daughters of Israel who have been tempted into a romantic relationship with a non-Jew.”

      • searching

        May 19, 2012 at 7:20 pm

        “We all support hybridization”
        Are you speaking Gilad in your name,
        and your twin brother???
        Nice :)

  7. Paul Eisen

    May 19, 2012 at 4:18 pm

    I don’t think it’s nonsense. Nor do I think what you’re saying is nonsense.

    As far as i know xenophobic means siomething like fear of the other. Ali doesn’t sound like he fears the other – just that he believes in his own biological and cultural identity and wants to preserve it.

    He’s not saying that nobody should marry outside their ‘group’ just that he believes people tend to be happier if they don’t.

    I don’t agree or disagree with him (I myself am happily married well outside my own group) but I don’t mind what he’s saying and I adore his courage in saying it.

  8. Laura Stuart

    May 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    Oh dear ! He sadly got involved with the racist sect “Nation of Islam” – who the Muslim scholars have ruled as being out of Islam. I think they ripped him off financially as well.

    Oh Paul how good to hear you are married I was starting to think everyone had forgotten to tell me something, after you have posted so much about gays. :)

    • Paul Eisen

      May 19, 2012 at 5:40 pm

      Have I posted so much about gays? I posted the video of Benjamin Cohen celebrating the happy union of his Jewishness and his gayness and I posted “The only gay in the village” clip because it seemed to confirm so much of what Gilad said in his piece.

      Anyway, I think homosexuality is like supremacism and paedophilia – we’ll all got a bit of it in us.

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos

        May 19, 2012 at 6:10 pm

        Please confirm my hope that in this particular context you define “paedophilia” as the lusting of an old geezer after a young WOMAN who could be his daughter or even granddaughter, not the loitering around kindergarten playgrounds. :-)

      • Jonathon Blakeley

        May 19, 2012 at 6:16 pm

        You are speaking for yourself here Paul. I defintely have no “homosexuality, supremacism or paedophilia” in me. But thanks for projecting.

        • searching

          May 19, 2012 at 7:46 pm

          Whew,good for you Jonathon.
          Paul got me worried :)

      • Somoe

        May 19, 2012 at 6:20 pm

        ERRR… I cant believe you said that, Are you jesting?
        Ain’t no paedophiliac supremacist in me, and i’m not in denial! I might accept the possibility of having bi tendencies but i think you go too far!

        • Paul Eisen

          May 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm

          I didn’t say ‘paedophiliac supremacist’ I said ‘supremacism and paedophilia’

          Anyway, if it doesn’t apply to you, then I’m very sorry for including you.

          • Somoe

            May 19, 2012 at 7:42 pm

            I apologise for getting my terms wrong, I did mean supremacism and paedophilia, i think i was too shocked by your admission!

        • Paul Eisen

          May 19, 2012 at 7:23 pm

          Somoe,

          For the record, when it comes to human thoughts or feelings for me, there is no ‘too far’. Human behaviour is quite another matter.

          I hope this also will address Ariadna’s ‘hope’ that she wanted confirmed.

          • Somoe

            May 19, 2012 at 7:43 pm

            Thank you, much appreciated:-)

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos

            May 19, 2012 at 8:36 pm

            I wasn’t excessively worried about you but thanks… :-)

          • fool me once...

            May 20, 2012 at 12:59 am

            Paul, just gonna ;) explore something at your expense, seen as though you so effortlessly put yourself in the spotlight with the following, hope it bears fruit;
            “For the record, when it comes to human thoughts or feelings for me, there is no ‘too far’.”
            and
            “I think homosexuality is like supremacism and paedophilia – we’ll all got a bit of it in us.”
            Ha ha well funny, you ain’t lost it, the old jew magic’s still there. Make an outrageous over the top statement then sit back and feed off the commotion. To me, it’s just a common jewish showbiz attention seeking tactic that I’ve noticed overs the years in the media. The funny thing is, on the whole, the jews don’t get rejected for it, unlike the goy. Just imagine what everyone would think and do if I or who_me had said that.I think Ariadna touches on this in her “Hit Me, I’ve Not Been Naughty Enough” post.
            All publicity is good publicity. It’s all about the timing. Win the crowd over with the patter, then BAM, hit ‘em with something they’ll remember – you’ll be the talk of the town…again.
            Examples
            1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NeqZOce1fE&feature=related
            2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJUU0HoJWLI
            3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgx5KZfoQ- o&feature=fvwrel
            4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMb69Du9fdM&feature=related
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=wVFImysMk9Y
            5. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSrhJGGDqx0&feature=related
            6. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ5aCGOPLic&feature=related
            … etc, etc, etc it’s all part of the routine. It’s as if the characters above are all using the same entertainment delivery technique, “there is no too far”. A mini Shock Doctrine effect, where no one dare mention the giant tribal bagel in the room.
            The technique worked for the pedo statement and the Ali article, a master class in Jewshock.
            What do you reckon Paul, am I close? ;)

            • Ariadna Theokopoulos

              May 20, 2012 at 1:51 am

              “old jew magic”
              Apologize!
              “old”?!?

              • Paul Eisen

                May 20, 2012 at 1:54 am

                You meant the magic was old, not the Jew.
                Right who-me?

                • fool me once...

                  May 20, 2012 at 2:36 am

                  “You meant the magic was old, not the Jew.
                  Right who-me?”
                  Er, now that you mention it Paul, it turns out both are true, it don’t help having a senior moment on the name either :)
                  February 13, 2012 at 7:59 pm
                  Pogrom! Who’s is to Blame?
                  Paul wrote
                  “It sounds great but I’m an old Jew….”

                  • Paul Eisen

                    May 20, 2012 at 6:39 am

                    Sorry fool me once. I picked up your comment in what was here tyhe middle of the night so that didn’t help.

                    But to get back to your comment, two things:

                    1. The Jewishness you rightly pick up in my homosexual, supremacism, paodophile comment is, in my view, more in the Jewish tendency to wish to disrupt and unsettle, in this case, certainly shock.
                    2. Having said that I really don’t find my comment as shocking as others seem to do. In my experience, the human mind (often unconscious) and human feelings know no bounds and are full of the forbidden. I also think that this is normal and fine so long as they are properly understood. It’s human behaviour that needs to be watched.
                    3. Again, I don’t really think there’s any wish on my part to divert attention from any issues that need to be discussed. Why do you suspect there is? Have you noticed this tendency or is it just because I’m Jewish? And what are those issues that are not being discussed here?

            • Paul Eisen

              May 20, 2012 at 1:52 am

              You’re right about quite enjoying the shock effects but I don’t think you’re at all right about the bagel in the room. (Unless of course I’m acting like Ingrid’s scorpion http://www.deliberation.info/once-a-jew-2/)

              Anyway, what is the bagel in the room that I don’t want people to mention?

              • fool me once...

                May 29, 2012 at 9:59 am

                Hi Paul, apologies for the delay, hope it’s worth the wait. You wrote;
                1. “The Jewishness you rightly pick up in my homosexual, supremacism, paodophile comment is, in my view, more in the Jewish tendency to wish to disrupt and unsettle, in this case, certainly shock.”
                Agreed, but with the bonus of gaining the attention. The jewish voice is heard, remembered and talked about.
                2. “Having said that I really don’t find my comment as shocking as others seem to do.”
                Precisely, as you said, for you, “there is no too far”. That’s the secret, conquer the “that’s too far” fear factor and become the puppet Meister.
                3. “Again, I don’t really think there’s any wish on my part to divert attention from any issues that need to be discussed. Why do you suspect there is? Have you noticed this tendency or is it just because I’m Jewish? And what are those issues that are not being discussed here?”
                When you said that “everyone” had a “bit” of sexual interest in prepubescent children in them, in retrospect, can you honestly say that there was no wish to divert attention onto yourself, for whatever reason?
                I didn’t “suspect” that you were trying to divert/gain attention – the responses to your comment were proof alone.
                “4. “I don’t think you’re at all right about the bagel in the room. Unless of course I’m acting like Ingrid’s scorpion. Anyway, what is the bagel in the room that I don’t want people to mention?”
                The “bagel in the room” in my comment was referring to the showbiz/media wo(Was the Tower of Bagel “too far”?)rld and how the the jew tribe has carte blanche to say anything it chooses under the “there is no too far” umbrella, where reference to the jewishness of the technique is forbidden. The goy self censor but the jew speaks with limitless gay abandon. (topical, I know)
                At the present time, with my limited understanding, I’d say yes, you were “acting like” Ingrids scorpion. Maybe you could answer that in better detail yourself (but not with a question ;) )
                .
                fmo… wrote;
                “The funny thing is, on the whole, the jews don’t get rejected for it, unlike the goy. Just imagine what everyone would think and do if I or who_me had said that.”
                My comment on your “Can gays be cured?” thread that has been removed served it’s purpose and proves my point. Yes it was yucky but humorous. I choose 5 adults, all with a track record of giving shit and taking shit. No one on the thread complained (I’m not saying people weren’t offended though) yet it was removed within 24hrs.
                You said everyone has a bit of pedo in them – and there’s a little uncomfortable shuffle on the forum. Where as, I described a hypothetical legal homosexual act between consenting adults – and I’m censored and ignored?!?
                Even my spokes person has cut me adrift :( .
                I thought I’d at least get a “you cheeky bastard” for the “felch” reference from who_me ;)
                Anyway, does all that make sense Paul?

                • fool me once...

                  June 11, 2012 at 12:24 am

                  Hi Paul, I’ll try to be succinct:
                  1. “I don’t really think there’s any wish on my part to divert attention from any issues that need to be discussed.”
                  The only diverting I was referring to was of the attention from the thread topic, to your good self, that you acknowledged by saying;
                  The Jewishness you rightly pick up is, in my view, more in the Jewish tendency to wish to disrupt and unsettle, in this case, certainly shock.
                  2. “Why do you suspect there is?”
                  I didn’t, I thought your paedophile comment was unashamed, gratuitous attention seeking, akin to that in the small sample of popular culture links I’d provided above.
                  3. “Have you noticed this tendency or is it just because I’m Jewish?”
                  Both, you appear to have answered this question in number 1. Maybe you are more jewish than you give yourself credit for.
                  4. “And what are those issues that are not being discussed here?”
                  Not relevant.
                  5. “Anyway, what is the bagel in the room that I don’t want people to mention?”
                  The bagel in the room was a reference to the “jewish shock technique” used in popular media that cannot be described as such. You admitted to your own usage of it, therefore, paradoxically there was no bagel in your the room.
                  When I wrote “A mini Shock Doctrine effect, where no one dare mention the giant tribal bagel in the room.” I was also alluding to Naomi Klein’s film, where there was a preponderance of jews in key roles but it was never mentioned.
                  6. “Also, I can’t recall censoring or blocking you but if you’ll again be more explicit, I’ll attend to that too.”
                  On May 27, 2012 at 1:54 pm Can Gay’s Be Cured? I posted a comment that was then removed. I think you know the one I’m talking about, “The Tower of Bagel” should jog your memory. You’re the editor of your articles, so you’ll know who removed it. I’ll repeat myself for the sake of clarity.
                  “My comment on your “Can gays be cured?” thread that has been removed served it’s purpose and proves my point. Yes it was yucky but humorous. I choose 5 adults, all with a track record of giving shit and taking shit. No one on the thread complained (I’m not saying people weren’t offended though) yet it was removed within 24hrs.
                  You said everyone has a bit of pedo in them – and there’s a little uncomfortable shuffle on the forum. Where as, I described a hypothetical legal homosexual act between consenting adults – and I’m censored and ignored?!?”
                  The whole comment from which the above extract was taken is on this thread only because, I take it, the Webmaster intervened. I tried numerous times to post it, but was blocked. I had no previous problems posting on this thread. Coincidence? I think not.
                  Then came the big freeze out, worthy of an nippy FEMEN style protest, where the repartee came to an icy stand-off. Ok I’ll stop now, but I hope this explains things and we can get back to the flow. Feel free to ignore the above if you feel it irrelevant and beneath you, although not wishing to evoke the spirit of a past sulky boy…
                  I’ll understand. ;) :)

                • Paul Eisen

                  June 11, 2012 at 7:58 am

                  1. “The Jewishness you rightly pick up in my homosexual, supremacism, paodophile comment is, in my view, more in the Jewish tendency to wish to disrupt and unsettle, in this case, certainly shock.”
                  Agreed, but with the bonus of gaining the attention. The jewish voice is heard, remembered and talked about.
                  THIS COULD WELL BE TRUE – IT’S NOT JUST ‘ME’ WHO GAINS ATTENTION, IT’S ‘THE JEW’ AND EVEN PERHAPS ‘THE JEWS’. INTERESTING.
                  2. “Having said that I really don’t find my comment as shocking as others seem to do.”
                  Precisely, as you said, for you, “there is no too far”. That’s the secret, conquer the “that’s too far” fear factor and become the puppet Meister.
                  COULD BE TRUE BUT NOT SO SURE. I NEED TO THINK. IF THIS WERE TRUE THAN I REALLY AM A SCORPION WHO HAS NO IDEA WHY HE STINGS – AGAIN, COULD BE TRUE BUT NEEDS THOUGHT
                  3. “Again, I don’t really think there’s any wish on my part to divert attention from any issues that need to be discussed. Why do you suspect there is? Have you noticed this tendency or is it just because I’m Jewish? And what are those issues that are not being discussed here?”
                  When you said that “everyone” had a “bit” of sexual interest in prepubescent children in them, in retrospect, can you honestly say that there was no wish to divert attention onto yourself, for whatever reason?
                  I didn’t “suspect” that you were trying to divert/gain attention – the responses to your comment were proof alone.
                  YES, AGREED. A WISH TO GAIN ATTENTION BUT NOT TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THE CHILD’S WISH TO HAVE ALL ATTENTION DIVERTED FROM EVERYTHING OTHER THAN HIMSELF.
                  “4. “I don’t think you’re at all right about the bagel in the room. Unless of course I’m acting like Ingrid’s scorpion. Anyway, what is the bagel in the room that I don’t want people to mention?”
                  The “bagel in the room” in my comment was referring to the showbiz/media wo(Was the Tower of Bagel “too far”?)rld and how the the jew tribe has carte blanche to say anything it chooses under the “there is no too far” umbrella, where reference to the jewishness of the technique is forbidden.
                  SO, THE THING I WANT TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM IS THE ‘JEWISHNESS’ OF MY ATTENTIOON-SEEKING? The goy self censor but the jew speaks with limitless gay abandon. (topical, I know)
                  At the present time, with my limited understanding, I’d say yes, you were “acting like” Ingrids scorpion. Maybe you could answer that in better detail yourself (but not with a question )
                  THE ‘SCORPION’ QUESTION IS VERY HARD FOR ME TO UNDERSTAND – PERHAPS THE VERY ESSENCE OF ‘BEING A SCORPION’ PRECLUDES THE KNOWLEDGE THAT ONE IS A SCORPION.
                  fmo… wrote;
                  “The funny thing is, on the whole, the jews don’t get rejected for it, unlike the goy. Just imagine what everyone would think and do if I or who_me had said that.”
                  PROBABLY TRUE – JUST ONE OF THE MANY ADVANTAGES(?)OF BEING A JEW.
                  My comment on your “Can gays be cured?” thread that has been removed served it’s purpose and proves my point. Yes it was yucky but humorous. I choose 5 adults, all with a track record of giving shit and taking shit. No one on the thread complained (I’m not saying people weren’t offended though) yet it was removed within 24hrs.
                  I DIDN’T KNOW IT WAS REMOVED AND I DIDN’T THINK IT SHOULD BE REMOVED – BUT I DID FIND IT YUCKY AND DIDN’T REALLY GET THE POINT YOU WERE MAKING.
                  You said everyone has a bit of pedo in them – and there’s a little uncomfortable shuffle on the forum. Where as, I described a hypothetical legal homosexual act between consenting adults – and I’m censored and ignored?!?
                  I CAN’T FULLY REMEMBER THE COMMENT BUT I THINK IT WENT INTO A LOT MORE GRAPHIC DETAIL THAN I DID. IS THAT TRUE? PERHAPS THT’S WHY IT WAS (WRONGLY)CENSORED.
                  Even my spokes person has cut me adrift .
                  I thought I’d at least get a “you cheeky bastard” for the “felch” reference from who_me
                  DON’T UNDERSTAND THIS AT ALL
                  Anyway, does all that make sense Paul?
                  YES, IT DOES ALL MAKE SENSE IN THAT IT GIVES ME PAUSE FOR THOUGHT. BUT THESE ARE NOT THE KIND OF ISSUES I CAN ‘UNDERSTAND’ IMMEDIATELY. BUT I WILL THINK ABOUT THEM.
                  AGAIN, MY APOLOGIES FOR NOT FOLLOWING UP BUT AS ARIADNA SUGGESTED, I JUST DIDN’T SPOT THIS COMMENT.

      • searching

        May 19, 2012 at 7:24 pm

        “Anyway, I think homosexuality is like supremacism and paedophilia – we’ll all got a bit of it in us”
        What is with this “We” today?
        Too much reading on the “Soviet propaganda techniques” subject??
        No, not “all got a bit of it in us”.
        Paul, please speak for yourself.
        No cheap projection shots.

      • Laura Stuart

        May 19, 2012 at 7:51 pm

        “Anyway, I think homosexuality is like supremacism and paedophilia – we’ll all got a bit of it in us.”

        Yikes !

        • Somoe

          May 19, 2012 at 11:15 pm

          ‘Yikes!’
          Hehehe! I love that word – it conveys so much, a shame it doesn’t get much use anymore. Thank you for reminding me of it:-D

    • Paul Eisen

      May 19, 2012 at 5:55 pm

      Can we define the term ‘racist’ or if not ban it from our discussions?

      • Laura Stuart

        May 19, 2012 at 7:16 pm

        The Nation of Islam were racist in the real meaning of the word read about them

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam

        • Deadbeat

          May 20, 2012 at 3:25 am

          The NOI is a reaction to “Blackness” as defined in the Talmud and practiced in America. Wikipedia has been totally corrupted by harbarats and not a good source of any information that challenges Zionism or Jewry.

  9. Somoe

    May 19, 2012 at 5:07 pm

    I stand corrected on the term ‘xenophobic’, perhaps he is not. However, miscegenation has been happening as long as humanity has been able to travel the planet and therefore it affects us all, from way back. Anti-miscegenation is just another form of segregating cultures, races and faiths – isolating them and creating xenophobic feelings between them. We all seek kindred spirits with whom we can relate on all levels and it is important to recognise that this crosses these illusory boundaries of culture, ethnicity and faith, above all we are all human beings.

    I do not deny that having pride in ones biological and cultural heritage is a wonderful thing, but to imply that mixing of cultures is somehow biologically ‘wrong’ seems to me a product of the time in which this video was filmed, when racist views were still predominant in society. It is largely due to the courage and fortitude of people like my parents that such attitudes have been modified to reflect a more humanist perspective.

    • Paul Eisen

      May 19, 2012 at 5:35 pm

      Somoe,#

      You say so much as if they’re absolute truths – but they’re not.

      For example, who says that the boundaries you refer to are any more illusory than your beliefs in the absolute beauty of miscegenation?

      And to you and Loren, I don’t think Ali speaks particularly from his time or even from his particular background. The things he feels have always been felt by many people and may continue to be felt by many people. The only thing that may stop people feeling like that is if miscegenation goes on to such an extent that there will be no ‘groups’ left.

      Would that be a good thing? I don’t know, but I’m sure that Tony Greenstein will be delighted.

      • Loren Franklin

        May 19, 2012 at 6:34 pm

        “Would that be a good thing? I don’t know, but I’m sure that Tony Greenstein will be delighted.”

        Well, I don’t think bashing TG is necessary here. The man has his own problems to deal with, and making them fodder for insults is not necessary.

        “And to you and Loren, I don’t think Ali speaks particularly from his time or even from his particular background”

        Then what experience does he speak from? He was speaking from 1971, about a life spent from the 50s up to that point. He most certainly did speak from his experiences, and about his experiences. He was also speaking from his experiences when he stated that he would not go to Vietnam and kill people who had never done anything wrong to him. I think he was perfectly capable of speaking for himself, as he proved over and over again. We are all centered in our own ego tunnels, and view the world from that position. While we are influenced by the world around us, our perceptions are our own. Ali certainly was influenced by Jim Crow America, but the thoughts that bounced around in his head were a product of his life in that environment: they were his own.

        Somoe and I are both products of miscegenation. It seems her experiences were better than mine. In racist America, I am considered a joke by many because I am part American Indian; and I am expected to keep it to myself and not mention it. I have been laughed at many times for bringing it up. Both by Indians and white people. I understand what Ali was saying, and why he said it. I also understand that there is nothing wrong with mixing races of people. It makes the genome stronger, and produces a healthier stock of humans. Ali had a different reality to deal with. At the time of this show, he was hated across America for refusing to follow Elvis to Germany. The FBI was after him, as was the Pentagon and the Wall Street criminals who profit on the blood of dead soldiers. We could all learn from this mans bravery and his commitment to truth. If you were to interview him today, in context of today’s political and racial atmosphere, he might have something different to say.

        • Loren Franklin

          May 19, 2012 at 6:43 pm

          I should edit that by saying that Elvis went to Germany. They would have sent Ali to Vietnam though.

        • Somoe

          May 19, 2012 at 7:10 pm

          Well put, Loren. Your perspective on Mohammed Ali offers a valuable insight into the man (thank you), and I believe you’re right in your conclusions; we are ultimately the product of our time and the influences upon us, and he would quite probably have something different to say now.

          Despite having had a happy childhood, I cannot say that it was devoid of racist intolerance, but because the family was supportive and community around me very diverse, I wasn’t too adversely affected by it. I am sorry to hear the same was not true for you.

        • who_me

          May 19, 2012 at 8:40 pm

          Loren Franklin

          “Well, I don’t think bashing TG is necessary here. The man has his own problems to deal with, and making them fodder for insults is not necessary.”

          that’s not the first time you defended the greenstain’s “honour”, i’ve noticed.

          let’s see, ali posits that white and black people shouldn’t intermarry and you go way out of your way to excuse his bigotry here and point out all his good traits.

          similarly, greenstain likes a jews only atmosphere to work in (for the important stuff, of course, he wouldn’t be adverse to giving orders to sabbath goys doing the menial tasks the chosen are over qualified to do).

          i think there may be a pattern here…. ;)

          • Loren Franklin

            May 19, 2012 at 9:47 pm

            “that’s not the first time you defended the greenstain’s “honour”, i’ve noticed.”

            I have never defended his honor, and I wait for you to prove I have. TG and I have locked horns on many occasions, in far from friendly terms. TG was raised by a man who scarred him very badly, a Rabbi who was extremely intolerant. I am able to have compassion for people who started out in life with several strikes against them. And certainly the people of this forum have better things to do with their limited time here on earth than throw rocks at a man who is relatively harmless and isolated in his views. I chose to have compassion for TG. That is my business, and none of yours.

            “let’s see, ali posits that white and black people shouldn’t intermarry and you go way out of your way to excuse his bigotry here and point out all his good traits.”

            I did not excuse his bigotry, I simply tried to offer a window into the reasons he felt — in 1971 — the way he felt. Again, compassion and wisdom can be helpful in understanding this man’s point of view. I don’t have to agree 100% with him to understand where he is coming from. I also don’t have to agree with everything he says — or said 41 years ago — to find him to be a great human being. Many great human beings have had their failings. That is common to all humans. Ali is an American hero, and the greatest American boxer that ever lived. None of us are perfect, so he doesn’t have to be either.

            “similarly, greenstain likes a jews only atmosphere to work in (for the important stuff, of course, he wouldn’t be adverse to giving orders to sabbath goys doing the menial tasks the chosen are over qualified to do). i think there may be a pattern here….”

            You evoke several racist stereotypes in this last statement, that say far more about you that they do TG, or me. While TG and I have fired many shots at each other over ideology, he is a human being. I don’t agree with much of what he says, but I agree with his right to say it, and I am no threat to him should he chose to do so. Tolerance works both ways.
            As for your accusations of my displaying a “pattern here,” I certainly hope I have. I hope it has become obvious that I do not hate Jews, and I do not blame them for the ills we suffer in the world today. I do not believe in scapegoating Jewish people for the problems we have today. And I don’t blame them for doing their best to give themselves and their children good lives. I hope that pattern is obvious to anyone who reads this forum.

            I’ll share one more Ali story for you, to give you an idea of the kind of man he is. A friend of mine was an Olympic boxer that fought in the Olympics against a Russian boxer, and lost. He was down in the locker room alone after the fight, crying his eyes out after loosing to the Russian boxer. All his years of training, and he didn’t even get a bronze medal. He told me that while he was sobbing, he felt someone put his arm around him and hug him. The person began to tell him that it was OK that he lost, because he fought his heart out. When my friend looked up, it was Ali who was talking to him. They were alone in the locker room. Ali took the time to leave the stands and go into that locker room to console my friend. Suddenly, loosing didn’t matter as much to him, and it became one of the best memories of his life. Ali touched the lives of millions of people in a positive way, and though he is imperfect, he deserves admiration. What have you done?

            • Jonathon Blakeley

              May 19, 2012 at 10:05 pm

              Cool. Compassion for all, I did not know that about TG, But I knew he had a Rabbi Dad. Its good to understand each and everyones trauma and pain. We all have different ordeals to go through and in undertanding these, it aids the correct compassionate response.

            • Ariadna Theokopoulos

              May 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm

              I would like you to keep in mind for the future, just in case, that I, too, have suffered traumas in my childhood. No need to open old wounds by describing them, I just want you to remember it the next time one of my posts offends you.
              Just make a quick notation: Ariadna– childhood trauma.
              Thanks.

              • Jonathon Blakeley

                May 19, 2012 at 11:00 pm

                Yeh yeh yeh My Trauma is bigger than your trauma and I have a doctor’s note to prove it.

                • Somoe

                  May 19, 2012 at 11:06 pm

                  i hope you’re not suggesting your trauma is superior to Ariadna’s?

                  • Ariadna Theokopoulos

                    May 19, 2012 at 11:28 pm

                    Let him try. My comeback is ready:
                    my trauma is UNIQUE. Nobody else suffered it for just being Ariadna.

                    • Jonathon Blakeley

                      May 19, 2012 at 11:43 pm

                      I am not “celebrating my trauma at the expense of others trauma.”…

                      Whilst Ariadna’s my have been UNIQUE mine was bigger in Scope and Scale, so much so that I have blocked out all memories of what is was. What was I saying…

            • who_me

              May 20, 2012 at 1:15 am

              Loren Franklin

              “I have never defended his honor”

              the wtf is this, sweetheart:

              “And certainly the people of this forum have better things to do with their limited time here on earth than throw rocks at a man who is relatively harmless and isolated in his views.”

              you’re trying to protect him from criticism. not exactly the same as defending his “honour”, but close enough for those who are not anal zionist semantics trolls.

              “TG and I have locked horns on many occasions, in far from friendly terms.”

              yeah, i bet you have. :D

              “You evoke several racist stereotypes in this last statement”

              you’re just as much an azz has greenstain is. that is typical cripto zionist misrepresentation. you lot are about the most duplitious creatures to have ever crawled upon the planet. at least with neocons, what one is dealing with is obvious, but you phonies are nothing but lies and deceit.

              • fool me once...

                May 20, 2012 at 2:07 am

                “yeah, i bet you have. :) ”
                Ha ha you beat me to it.

              • Gilad Atzmon

                May 20, 2012 at 2:23 pm

                Equating Ali with AZZ’s / Greensteins is more than reasonable and consistent, yet it also important to point at the differences, while ALI and AZZ are operating with segregated discourses, Ali is open about it, yet the AZZ are engaged in culture of deceit. They speak universal yet think and operate tribally..

                It is this conspiratorial manner of behavior which we criticise…

  10. Somoe

    May 19, 2012 at 6:06 pm

    I do not deny anyone’s right to have their racist perspectives, all i questioned was that anti-miscegenistic perspectives are healthy for our respective societies.

    To hold this up as an example of exemplary humanity is questionable so why did you post it for our deliberation, Paul?

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos

      May 19, 2012 at 6:44 pm

      Isn’t just possible that:
      It is not racist to want to preserve one’s identity.
      It is racist to consider yours a superior race.
      It is not racist to wish to live in a society where blacks, whites and in-betweens coexist as distinct but equal groups.
      It is racist to wish to institute apartheid to separate them.
      It isn’t racist to pity those who ‘miscegenate’; it is just ignorant.
      It is racist to consider miscegenation an ill and a danger to society.

      Racists who fear miscegenation should lay their fear aside: it is always possible to maintain racist attitudes to one’s heart’s content even among mixed races:
      American blacks use a slur to refer to the offspring of miscegenation with whites: “yellow nigger,” and Brazil, perhaps the country where the races have mixed the most, almost to being indistinguishable, still has a ruling class that is always on the pale side of pigmentation. Perhaps when that becomes hard to see they’ll select something else: hair, nose…

      • Jonathon Blakeley

        May 19, 2012 at 6:56 pm

        here here, total agreement. :-) . No one is saying we all have to become coffee coloured. That is just fear mongering.

      • Somoe

        May 19, 2012 at 7:13 pm

        Yes, absolutely. I agree with your definition of racism completely. Thank you for the clarification.

  11. Paul Eisen

    May 19, 2012 at 6:37 pm

    Regarding Ali’s views being an example of ‘exemplary humanity’, I’ve neither said nor implied any such thing.

    The only thing i found exemplary about him was his truthfulness (to himself), courage and eloquence. and

    But surely you’re not suggesting that I was wrong to post it?

    • Somoe

      May 19, 2012 at 7:22 pm

      No, i was questioning posting it without any qualification as to what qualities you were praising. The title of the video is ‘Mohammed Ali tells the truth’. You have to admit it’s a little misleading. Thank you for clarifying with your last comment.

      • Paul Eisen

        May 19, 2012 at 7:25 pm

        Well, for some people what Ali says is ‘the truth’.

        • Somoe

          May 19, 2012 at 8:09 pm

          Well for many people, it just isn’t. And therefore something like this requires some editorial comment, to put it in perpective and give it some context.

          There are many more positive examples of the man’s eloquence and courage as Loren has shown, so I simply question why you chose this video to illustrate his finer qualities. It seems clear you wanted to highlight his attitude toward the mixing of ethnicity and culture, despite the opposition to it from Parky.

          Don’t be surprised when separatist perspectives born of an essentially racist society 4 decades ago being vaunted as ‘the truth’ encounter a little opposition in the world of today.

  12. searching

    May 19, 2012 at 7:04 pm

    M.Ali says exactly what many Jews in Israel are practising. At least try.
    If you want to stay STRONG a race and ethnic/religious group you DON’t MIX. It is a fact. Truth.
    But……..Israeli practice it in their own “Jewish State”, while… the diaspora Jewish Power Elite, distributed all over the world , preaches to goyim something exactly the OPPOSITE.
    Mix and match, intermarry. The more the better. WHY??
    You stupid goyim will be weaker, easier to conquer and enslave. You will have no identity, no moral spine ,no pride of belonging to certain group,
    you will be tolerant of everything because you’ll lose the idea of what is good ,and what is wrong. You will be pliable like a pack of
    play-dough, easy to mold in any shape we want you to be.

  13. who_me

    May 19, 2012 at 8:29 pm

    does ali still think this way? or did he eventually grow out of it? does anyone know?

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos

      May 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm

      He is not in the greatest shape to think much of anything now, poor guy.
      Boxing, and particularly his style of standing and taking punishment, has done a number on his brain.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos

      May 19, 2012 at 8:46 pm

      “When Ali was first diagnosed with Parkinson’s Syndrome, he went through a battery of tests, first at the renowned Mayo Clinic, then at a series of other highly respected institutions. Ali’s physical exams and tests indicated a surprising amount of abnormalities, all of which seemed to be boxing related. It was found that Ali had a hole in the membrane separating the two sides of his brain. While this type of abnormality is often congenital, being punched in the head repeatedly, if not causing such a condition, can certainly exacerbate and worsen it. Further complicating matters, Ali was shown to have a series of degenerative changes in his brain stem; a part of the brain that is linked with dopamine production, a neurotransmitter that is lacking in those afflicted with Parkinson’s-like afflictions.
      Ali’s brain stem was shown to be significantly damaged, and his attending physicians, in a statement released at Muhammad Ali’s behest, stated that they believed Ali’s brain damage to be boxing-induced.

      … his Parkinson’s Syndrome was likely caused as the result of repeated blows to the head which irreversibly damaged his brain stem.

      Many in the anti-boxing establishment often cite the sorry physical condition of Muhammad Ali as exhibit A as to why the sport of boxing should be banned. Boxing is brutal, they say, and punching an opponent with the goal of knocking him unconscious is too barbaric to be considered a sport!

      Those familiar with Ali’s career know that he fought well-past his prime, and that in Ali’s last two bouts before he retired for good, he took a bad beating from Larry Holmes, and he was whipped handily by Trevor Berbick. Ali took a heavy amount of head punishment in both of those bouts.”

    • Laura Stuart

      May 19, 2012 at 9:03 pm

      Well none of you are listening to the reason I gave you for his weird views which were related to him following a racist and deviated sect of Islam called Nation of Islam and yes he did leave that and become a mainstream Sunni Muslim which is a very non racist religion.

      You are free to completely ignore me and post another 50 posts speculating as to why he is racist if you want. Plese don’t follow the link I provided to Nation of Islam which explains everything in case I am right.

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos

        May 19, 2012 at 9:24 pm

        Fine and dandy but what about zillions of other blacks who felt the same way and did not belong to the Nation of Islam?
        Nothing he said sounded much like any kind of Islam. It sounded like what a black American would think, perhaps more in his time than now.

        • Gilad Atzmon

          May 20, 2012 at 10:36 am

          The question is different Laura and Ariadna, why shouldn’t he express what he feels or think? I do not see racism in MA’s approach, he doesn’t even want to mix with Black in general, he wants to be with a “Black American Woman”… it is actually a cultural segregation. And again on the expense of no one else (unlike Zionists and AZZ) …

          • Paul Eisen

            May 20, 2012 at 11:26 am

            I think Ali’s position is a complex and very human mix of racial and cultural factors.

            I also think that attitudes to race in society (and in these comment sections) border on the hysterical – largely, in my view, because of a post-war, post-Holocaust Jewish-imposed discourse.

            If we at deLiberation can’t get out of it, who can?

  14. Somoe

    May 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm

    It is a natural state to mingle with the rest of the humans on the globe. It is unnatural to exist in exclusivist groups; and by restricting such co-mingling across faiths and ethnicities, it creates an abomination.

    What is wrong is globalization and the mass immigration that has dramatically changed the cultural identity of places across the world, causing cultures to become homogenised and in some cases lost and on that I can agree with searching.

    The exploitation and destruction of foreign lands by Imperialist forces and the military industrial complex have forced the mass migration of people from their homes to seek a better life. This is not a natural inter-mingling rather an abnormal one inflicted upon the communities of the world, that has resulted in the cultural identity of many becoming fractured.

    • Somoe

      May 19, 2012 at 8:58 pm

      It need not necessarily be a completely negative outcome, humanity might actually benefit for the mass mingling that is occurring if more people realise who the real enemies of humanity’s evolution are, stop being consumerist, TV controlled sheep and manage to overcome the oppression of those ruling us with very little trouble at all.

    • Gilad Atzmon

      May 20, 2012 at 10:41 am

      Somoe: It is a natural state to mingle with the rest of the humans on the globe.

      Gilad: Natural to who? probably to you and me and some others but not to all,, by imposing our multicultral ideas in the name of ‘tolerance’, we actually become utterly intolerant.

      Those amongst us who support One Democratic State in Palestine have to deal with the fact that Many Israelis are not convinced that it is natural to intermingle..

      • Somoe

        May 20, 2012 at 12:56 pm

        If we look at the behaviour of the human animal prior to the man-made borders created by the ‘territorially challenged’ control freaks, we would see that many humans did indeed travel the world naturally, nomadically seeking out resources and for survival. Ergo it is natural behaviour. Granted, it was not the mass movement of the scale we see in the modern day that has a negative impact on the societies being mingled into, coupled with increasing detachment of many societies from the ecology of which we are a part as a result of ‘development’(ie the total exploitation of the environment for the benefit of a few).

        You may well counter by saying that the protectionist, tribal, segregational behaviour of some is also natural, and whilst i may agree that if they feel so strongly about it then they should get on with it, (despite the problems caused by a limited gene pool), when such a mindset occupies seats of power over others, as in the case of Jewish Power, then as you say it becomes a problem for us all. Let us hope that we don’t all go down with the ship.

        • Laura Stuart

          May 20, 2012 at 6:09 pm

          Somoe Human and Animal are two different creations.

          Presumably when M.A. became a Sunni Muslim he would have been re educated about his racist views although there is nothing wrong with wanting to marry one of your own culture other seperatism is not allowed. It says on Wiki that he later became a Sufi which is the happy clappy tambourine waving sect of Islam. Perhaps he was easily influenced by personalities.

  15. Ariadna Theokopoulos

    May 19, 2012 at 10:12 pm

    On an uplifting note:

    Togetherness –in the workplace, at the table or in bed– is good; so is separateness, provided neither is imposed.
    Homosexuality or heterosexuality–sexuality—al good, paedophilia, not so much, Paul.

    A little smug supremacy is tolerable if you are not….

    [all together now with the force of the Tabernacle choir, to show Gilad we know it by heart already]

    … CELEBRATING IT AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHERS!
    [I didn't hear you. Louder!]

    Let’s all learn from Jonathan’s example.
    He knows he is special, he knows he was born lucky and yet, although he has a magnificent head of hair, he treats those bald or balding as his peers and never acts like he is superior.

  16. Laura Stuart

    May 19, 2012 at 10:19 pm

    Spanish Jewish Music anyone ?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=P9BZTqSUzOE#!

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