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Two British Historians: Irving and Hobsbawm

Eric Hobsbawm has just died. As the article below (1) says, he was a giant of the Left, with all the good and bad things that implies. He was a member of the Communist Party when Josef Stalin was still head of the world communist movement, and his view of history reflected this. He was soft on Soviet crimes such as the ‘Holodomor’, the deaths of millions of Ukrainians in the 1930’s.

Still, when he gave talks, he was not besieged by angry mobs trying to shut down the meeting for ‘Holodomor denial’.

David Irving might also be accused of allowing his politics to influence his view of history. For example, he has sometimes underestimated Nazi war crimes. When Irving speaks, he is besieged by angry mobs trying to shut down the meeting for ‘Holocaust denial’. Whereas Hobsbawm was a member of the movement responsible for the Holodomor, Irving has never been a member of the movement responsible for the Holocaust.

Why these two great historians are treated so differently I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

  1. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/culturenews/9602136/Eric-Hobsbawn-was-a-giant-of-the-Left-who-took-my-teenage-mind-to-task.html (note the consistent misspelling of Hobsbawm’s name)

 

29 Responses to Two British Historians: Irving and Hobsbawm

  1. who_me October 12, 2012 at 11:46 am #

    ah…more nazi shit. cool :D

  2. who_me October 12, 2012 at 12:21 pm #

    britain goes from fighting nazis to becoming nazis. but then the rightwing paedos, public school queens and coprophiliacs who run the british guv have always had a soft spot for fascism:

    http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defence/heroes-barred-from-receiving-russian-medal-1-4363704

    “THE Foreign Office has blocked plans by the Russian government to honour Arctic Convoy veterans with a medal for valour.

    As previously reported, the Russian Embassy wrote to the survivors of the harrowing Second World War campaign telling them it intends to give them the Medal of Ushakov for their heroic role.

    The convoys kept Russia supplied to keep fighting the Nazis on Germany’s eastern front, and have been credited with ensuring Hitler did not triumph.

    But while the Ushakov medal has been handed to veterans from Australia, Canada and the United States for their role in the convoys, the British government is refusing to allow it to be given to British veterans.

    Commander Eddie Grenfell, 92, of Portsea, has been leading a 15-year campaign to get a campaign medal struck by the UK in recognition for sacrifices of the veterans.

    They are angry that, despite a promise in opposition to grant a medal when next in power, the Conservative party has so far not done so.

    Of this latest blow he said: ‘I cannot believe the Foreign Office, William Hague, is doing this. This is not a campaign medal, this is a medal for valour. He’s saying that what we did out there, what we went through, had no valour at all.

    ‘The Russian government is apparently disgusted that the Americans, Australians and Canadians can have it but we can’t. What I say is, why don’t they give it to us? What would our government do, take it off us?’

    Earlier this year, ambassador of the Russian Federation, Alexander Yakovenko, said: ‘We are offering the Medal of Ushakov. For us, it’s an important part of our history.

    ‘Those who are fully acquainted with the heroic deeds of the participants would agree they should be recognised. It was difficult for the sailors, as they had to take into account not only the attacks by the planes and the submarines, but also the severe conditions.’

    Under UK law, citizens are allowed to receive foreign medals and awards only if the British government gives them permission, and only if the award relates to the recipient’s activities within past five years.

    A spokesman for the Foreign Office said: ‘The rules on the acceptance of foreign awards state that for permission to be given for an award to be accepted, there has to have been specific service to the country concerned and that that service should have taken place within the previous five years.

    ‘Additionally, permission cannot be granted if they have received, or are expected to receive, a UK award for the same services.

    ‘All British Veterans of the Convoys were eligible for the World War Two Atlantic Star. Additionally, a lapel badge (the Arctic Emblem) was introduced in 2006 and some 10,000 have been issued.’

    Portsmouth South MP Mike Hancock said: ‘It is absolutely ridiculous and shameless. This country can’t even give them the medal but we can stop them from getting a medal from the people they went to help. It’s an absolute disgrace on his (Hague’s) part and it’s a slur on this country.

    ‘I’m so disappointed. How many times do these men have to be denied?’

    Russian Embassy statement

    The British side has officially informed us on their decision to deny permission for acceptance of the Medal of Ushakov by British heroes of the Arctic Convoys citing the ‘five-year principle’ applied to service toward a foreign country.

    ‘This decision gives us grounds for deep regret.

    ‘We consider such rationale cannot serve the basis for a refusal to recognise the heroic service of the British convoy veterans.

    ‘We hope that the British authorities will reconsider this bureaucratic formality and review their position.

    ‘All the more so, as there was a lot of hope for a positive decision as we worked for several months, drawing up and checking the list of veterans.”

  3. Ariadna Theokopoulos October 12, 2012 at 12:35 pm #

    Hobsbaum was safe from protests for being “soft” on Soviet crimes like the Holomodor because most people in the West were carefully kept totally ignorant of the Holomodor.
    Why would the “better red than dead” hysteria bypass such a great argument? Because a close look at it would have revealed who had organized and executed the genocide by starvation. To this day when that is brought up the standard reply is that jews only “happened” to be in those positions of power, Stalin was ultimately in charge and anyone else, Russians, in those positions would have done the same under Stalin. Would have, could have, but it so “happened” they didn’t.

    The treatment by the two historians differs not so much in the size and decibels of the protests: Hobsbaum was never imprisoned for his research, nor was he pursued by the concerted action of several Western government, as Iriving was.

    You say that H was involved in politics, belonged to the Communist Party, whereas I was not.
    A clarification of H’s devotion to marxism is needed. While H maintained he was a communist to the end of his life, when “the time was right” he started talking about marxism no longer applying to the proletariat, a dwindling class, but needing to be expanded and revamped. He was an adviser to Kinnock and helped revise the British Communist Platform that paved the way for neo-liberalism…. Wishing to maintain deniability he would ridicule Blair as “Thatcher in trousers.”

    A funny aside about wikipedia: it uses a curious circumlocution to admit H was a jew without saying it upfront. It says he “was born in a Jewish household.” So it’s not that he was a Jew, or comes form a Jewish family but it’s just that … “he was born in a jewish household.” What’s a household? Does it include the pets and the furniture?

    • Jay Knott October 13, 2012 at 1:31 pm #

      “Why would the ‘better red than dead’ hysteria bypass such a great argument?” asks Ariadna. For the benefit of younger readers I will explain: she refers to McCarthyism – in the 50s, communists in the USA were harassed. She hints that Hobsbawm escaped this because he was Jewish.
      My answer to her question is as follows:
      1. Hobsbawm lived in Britain during McCarthyism
      2. He WAS passed over for promotion because of his communist politics
      3. The rest of her comment, about the Holodomor, shows the same rigor

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos October 13, 2012 at 3:16 pm #

        “She hints that Hobsbawm escaped this because he was Jewish.”

        Wrong again…. getting boring.
        I hinted at no such thing. I said, and I had thought rather clearly, that the Holomodor, because of who the perpetrators had been, was a subject to be avoided even by rightists who were all too eager to highlight communism’s crimes, so why would they, much less the leftists (jews galore) complain that H never breathed a word about it?

        • Jay Knott October 14, 2012 at 7:26 am #

          Yes, I was wrong. I misinterpreted what you wrote.

          However, I was right to criticize your lack of rigor regarding the Holodomor: “the standard reply is that jews only ‘happened’ to be in those positions of power, Stalin was ultimately in charge and anyone else… in those positions… would have done the same. Would have, could have, but it so ‘happened’ they didn’t”.

          That doesn’t prove your point about Jews in positions of power during the Holodomor. You need examples where goyisch apparatchiks murdered far fewer people in similar circumstances.

          BTW, an important point is that here we can debate it. The J-dominated Palestine groups wouldn’t allow that.

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos October 14, 2012 at 3:39 pm #

            “That doesn’t prove your point about Jews in positions of power during the Holodomor. You need examples where goyisch apparatchiks murdered far fewer people in similar circumstances.”

            and… wrong again.
            My “point” about the Jews in positions of power in the planning and execution of Holomodor does not need to be “demonstrated.” It is FACT.
            If “goyisch apparatchiks” had been in charge of the Soviet repressive machine and had behaved as the jews did–in reverse– that is, sparing Goyim, Russian intelligentsia and Russian churches, then there would have been no gulags (because there would not have enough people to stuff into them), and no Holomodor.

          • Jay Knott October 15, 2012 at 7:34 am #

            Ariadna – was there no part of Stalin’s empire which was not run primarily by Jews? And if there was such an area, was it run humanely? If you could answer those questions ‘yes’, then your ‘fact’ about Jews and the Holomodor would have some substance to it.

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos October 15, 2012 at 12:37 pm #

            That makes no sense. Was it intentional?

          • Jay Knott October 16, 2012 at 4:52 am #

            Are there any examples of major crimes carried out under Stalin whose organizers were not Jewish? If so, why do you think it significant that the major perpetrators of one of those crimes were (allegedly) Jewish? It’s not enough to just say they were Jewish, even if you can prove the claim.

          • pgg804 October 16, 2012 at 7:16 am #

            According to the Ukrainian government, the Jews were responsible for the Holodomor. The Jewish Telegraph Agency reported that the Ukraine’s security service has compiled a list of the perpetrators of the atrocity and almost every name on the list is Jewish.

            After how they grossly exaggerated and used the “Holocaust” not only to create their state on Palestinian land, but also as an excuse to blackmail governments all over the world out of hundreds of billions of dollars, you would think they would keep their heads low on this one; but not the Jews. They accuse the Ukrainian government of using the Holodomor for political purposes.

            http://www.jta.org/news/article/2009/06/15/1005888/jewish-group-objects-to-holodomor-lawsuit

          • pgg804 October 16, 2012 at 8:07 am #

            A Jew ordered the massacre at Katyn as well. See the second book review in the link below called “Final Solution”.

            “Under the orders of former NKVD officer Petr Soprunenko, still living as a Jewish pensioner in Moscow, the NKVD murdered the fifteen thousand captured Polish officers at Katyn and two other sites near Smolensk over the following weeks.”

            http://www.heretical.com/miscella/irving2.html

            Don’t expect to read that in wikipedia though.

  4. who_me October 12, 2012 at 12:45 pm #

    http://www.regnum.ru/english/1534153.html

    Algirdas Paleckis, or a new Dreyfus case in Europe?

    “Algirdas Paleckis is a well-known Lithuanian politician, diplomat and journalist. Most recently he became a symbol of fight for the freedom of speech and historic truth in Europe.

    A. Paleckis was born in 1971. He graduated the Vilnius University with two degrees in journalism and in political science. He also studied at the Institute of Public Administration in Paris. In 1994-2003A. Paleckis worked as the Lithuanian diplomat in Vilnius and at the embassy to the EU in Brussels. In2004-2006A. Paleckis was a member of Lithuanian Parliament, in2007-2008he served as the Vice-Mayor of Vilnius.

    Currently A. Paleckis presides the political party in Lithuania, the Socialist People’s Front, and is a member of board of “World Without Nazism”, a world-wide human rights organization. He is staunch defender of democratic and socials rights in Lithuania and in Europe. A. Paleckis regularly publishes articles on politics and economics. He is fluent in English, German, French, Russian, speaks Spanish and Polish.

    In 2011 a process that could be equaled to the Dreyfus case started in Lithuania. A. Paleckis is currently threatened by the State Prosecutor with one year in prison just for revealing the inconvenient facts for the ultra-right Lithuanian Government. The term “ultra-right” is used because the Government proclaims many former Lithuanian Nazis as “National Heroes”.

    To put the long story short, Lithuania broke away from the USSR in late 1991, but earlier, in January 1991 the Soviet troops took over the Vilnius TV center, and 14 people died in the event. The Lithuanian Government blamed the troops but presented practically no evidence and until now did not bring the investigation to the end. A. Paleckis, a former investigative journalist, however, made his own investigation. He found many witnesses, and also the ballistic expertise indicating that there were secret snipers on the roofs who were shooting into the civilians in January 1991 at the Vilnius TV center. So A. Paleckis publicly said that “it appears that in January 1991 our own people were shooting at their natives”.

    The ruling party in Lithuania initiated the trial against A. Paleckis by writing the letter to the state prosecutor. The latter, just because of a few words of A. Paleckis mentioned above, charged him with “denying the Soviet aggression against Lithuania”. A. Paleckis won the first court. However, the crucial appeal session of the court is scheduled for the 12th of June 2012 in Vilnius.

    The fight for the freedom of thought, speech and opinion, and also for the historic truth continues. The “Paleckis case” got a huge attention in Europe and in Lithuania, the EU and NATO member state. We call on all democratic forces to write supporting letters to Algirdas Paleckis (algirdas.paleckis@gmail.com). And here, for those who are willing to contact the Lithuanian Court and perhaps ask questions about this persecution, is its e-mail : and postal address: Gedimino pr. 40/1, LT-01501 Vilnius District Court, Lietuva, Lithuania.)”

  5. who_me October 12, 2012 at 12:49 pm #

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_10_10/Russia-in-the-world-without-Nazism/

    “Some 70 years passed since the defeat of the Nazism but now it seems to be raising its head. Far right radicals are gaining popularity in Europe, while more people are being discriminated or killed in ethnic crimes. This is happening amid the global financial crisis, similar to the one faced by pre-Nazi Germany in the 1920s. Thus, activists and anti-Nazi fighters called together the World Without Nazism conference in Strasbourg.

    WW2 veterans who fought against the brown plaque could hardly imagine to see it reviving. History repeats itself, and the world is struggling with the crisis again, says the chairman of the World Without Nazism movement Boris Spiegel.

    “Today, we have the same ground for Nazism as Germany had in the 1920s. Then, people saw propaganda of a certain ideology, the same as today, as far right radicals grabbed the helm in many countries, promoting Nazism and breaching the Nuremberg Trials decisions. They depict Nazis and their collaborators as heroes.”

    The participants of the forum are sure that there is no race or belief which avoided persecution so the goal of the forum is to fight against hatred and attempts to rewrite history. Russia shares this stance.

    Russia’s Duma MP and deputy head of the Committee on Compatriots Tatyana Moskalkova has urged the creation of a solid basis to protect the rights of ethnic minorities.

    “Nazism began not in Buchenwald or during marches and parades. It began as an ideology of racial supremacy and ended in racism and genocide. We saw the same in Georgia which rejected the independence of S.Ossetia and Abkhazia and triggered the August 2008 conflict. Now, we should do everything to keep the Pandora’s Box with demons of Nazism closed.”

    The forum’s participants also slammed the Baltic countries where the situation with Nazi sympathizers is threatening. According to the World Without Nazism survey, every country has its specifics of far radical movements, says deputy chairman of the World Without Nazism Valery Engel.

    “Nazism alert is different everywhere. In Western Europe, we see the shattering of multiculturalism which has split society, while in Eastern Europe, especially in the Baltic countries, some Russian-speaking people failed to assimilate to new values after the Soviet Union collapse but the government forced them to do it which led to a systemic crisis.”

    The forum united 100 activists from 24 countries. Top officials from Russia, Ukraine, France, Moldova and the US adopted a roadmap and a budget for the next year.”

  6. who_me October 12, 2012 at 1:08 pm #

    “we gots to keep them darkies out of the sacred white fatherland and keep the brown hoard from diluting the sacred white race any further”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/greeces-evolving-social-crisis-black-shirt-fascists-in-the-greek-islands/

    “But, there was also relief that the Golden Dawn (GD) presence was so small. I counted 35 in their ranks, of whom half appeared to be from outside Samos – they were the ones getting them sorted out in ranks of 3 in the car park before they marched, and leading the chants. The others may have been from Samos but none were recognized by those we were with although later I was told by a close friend who lives and works in the town that she recognized 3 police men from Samos amongst the GD marchers. I think there were 3 or 4 women whilst the rest were men mostly in their late 20s and 30s dressed in jeans and black T shirts. Most of them seemed to carry a flag – lots of Greek and some Golden Dawn flags- which I supposed helped disguise their small turn out….”

    rightwing gay pride….

    :D

  7. pgg804 October 12, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

    Judging by the time stamps on your posts, I was probably wrong the other day when I guessed you were American.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos October 12, 2012 at 1:32 pm #

      I’m a naturalized US citizen but don’t live there anymore. Don’t ask for more details: both of my handlers (neither knows of the existence if the other) advise me to lend my ear but few my voice.

  8. who_me October 12, 2012 at 2:52 pm #

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2491/whats-the-true-story-on-south-american-nazis

    “What’s the true story on South American Nazis?
    January 30, 2004

    Dear Cecil:

    What’s the true story on South American Nazis? After World War II why would countries like Argentina and Paraguay want them?

    — David Storms

    Come now. After the war Argentina and Paraguay were run for years by nationalist strongmen, Juan Peron and Alfredo Stroessner respectively, who liked to strut around in military regalia and brutalize dissidents. Argentina had remained officially neutral until early 1945, when economic pressure forced it to throw in with the Allies, but until that point was in intimate contact with Hitler’s regime and the fascist Franco government in Spain. Postwar Brazil was still fascist-friendly, a legacy of deposed dictator Getulio Vargas. Surely it’s no surprise that the leaders of these countries nurtured fraternal feelings for fleeing Nazis. I might also point out that not all fugitives from the Third Reich ended up in South America–quite a few are said to have headed for Spain or the Middle East, and the U.S. imported a crowd of Nazi rocket scientists during Operation Paperclip. That said, the true story of how war criminals like Adolf Eichmann and Josef Mengele wound up in the land of the gauchos has never been fully told, and even now it’s difficult to separate fact from fiction. Leading candidates for chief enabler of the great escape include:

    Odessa. Part of the popular consciousness ever since Frederick Forsyth’s best-selling 1972 novel The Odessa File, this secret group (the name is an acronym for Organization der ehemaligen SS-Angehörigen, “Organization of Former SS Members”) supposedly used stashed war booty and connections in high places to spirit Nazi big shots out of reach of the Allies. Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal says he first heard about Odessa during the Nuremberg trials, and in his 1989 book Justice, Not Vengeance he seems convinced it exists, or rather existed. He offers little evidence, though, and others have their doubts. Even some believers say the organization was amateurish and short-lived.

    The Catholic church. The claim that members of the Catholic hierarchy were instrumental in obtaining documents, cash, and safe passage for many escaping Nazis is only barely scandalous these days. The benign view is that individual clerics acted out of humanitarian concern, believing they were aiding refugees from postwar communist persecution, and were unaware of their charges’ sordid pasts. Others say the Vatican knew quite well what was going on but wanted former Nazis as allies in its struggle against the reds. A figure commonly named in this context is Alois Hudal, an openly pro-Nazi German bishop in Rome who is said to have helped engineer the escapes of dozens if not hundreds of Nazis–including Eichmann, who was living in Argentina when the Mossad caught him in 1960, and Franz Stangl, commandant of the Treblinka death camp, who ultimately made his way to Brazil and was captured there in 1967.

    All of the above plus Peron. Argentine journalist Uki Goñi, in The Real Odessa: Smuggling the Nazis to Peron’s Argentina (2002), offers what amounts to a synthesis of earlier theories. The “real Odessa,” he says, consisted of about a dozen energetic ex-Nazis and Nazi collaborators from several nations, including a few wanted war criminals, working in concert with the Peron regime and sympathetic Catholic officials in both Europe and Argentina. Goñi makes a plausible case that the cabal, which was organized in Buenos Aires following Peron’s election as Argentina’s president in 1946, orchestrated the emigration of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Nazis and other unsavory types to the country in the late 1940s and early 1950s. (He also claims that the cabal was based at the presidential palace, and that many of its members were given important jobs in Peron’s government.) The old Nazis made frequent trips to Europe to troll for more fugitives; some war criminals had to be smuggled out, but in other cases countries were glad to unload their troublesome Nazi refugees. Visas and landing permits were handed out freely, the chief concern being that no communists or Jews be allowed in by mistake. How many ex-Nazis made it to Argentina is not known. Goñi says he identified 300 during six years of research, and it’s easy to believe there were many more.

    It’s a lot to swallow, no question, and notwithstanding his 591 footnotes Goñi concedes that many key Argentine records that would’ve corroborated his story have been destroyed. Still, he avoids the overheated claims of other writers, and the plain fact is that all those Nazis didn’t wind up in South America by coincidence–they were going where they were welcome. As for the details? Given the current worldwide consensus that Nazis represent the ultimate human evil (and the resulting disinclination of officials in Argentina and elsewhere to come clean), Goñi’s book may be as close as we’ll get to the truth.

    — Cecil Adams”

    • who_me October 12, 2012 at 2:59 pm #

      the writer above doesn’t mention the nazis and nazi collaborators used by the cia and the americans. the latest example of this i know of being 2 croatian nazi collaborators living in the usa who were campaign contributors to bush sr. election, and afterwards headed over to yugoslavia to help get the initial croatian part of that destabilisation op started.

  9. Roy Bard October 12, 2012 at 2:54 pm #

    Between their expulsion from Palestine in the first century AD and the 19th century, the Jews lived within the wider society of gentiles,

    Hobsbawn’s ‘History’

    • Blake October 13, 2012 at 9:22 pm #

      At least he called it Palestine which is a lot more than one can say about the current crop of Zionist propagandists who deny Palestine ever existed. The rest of “his story” was just self praise for his tribe.

  10. who_me October 12, 2012 at 3:43 pm #

    nice juxtaposing of photographs showing the similarities between nazis and zionazis. the difference between zionazis and the modern nazis (white supremacist “marxism=jewish” sorts, this being their equivalent version of the zionazi smear of calling opponents antisemites) is likewise miniscule.

    http://www.mideastyouth.com/2010/05/23/nazism-zionism-equal/

    “I don’t have much to say in this article, but I will gladly quote: “A picture speaks more than a 1,000 words.” And the pictures which I’m about to post here, should be more than sufficient to serve my purpose for writing this article.

    What you’re about to see, are sets of pictures of both Germany during the Nazi Reign (left), and modern day Israel (right)”

  11. pgg804 October 12, 2012 at 7:33 pm #

    A British-American documentary co-production: “They saved Hitler’s Brain”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWCwKW94Ap4

  12. pgg804 October 15, 2012 at 4:53 am #

    A few days ago in a discussion on one of Deliberation’s articles in which we were discussing Communism and National Socialism (aka Nazism), Father Coughlin’s name was brought up. Father Coughlin was also mentioned in a posted song sung by Woody Guthrie during the WW II years. Father Coughlin had a radio show in the 1930’s and early 1940’s. As I said to someone else the other day, I remember hearing his name as a teenager already and I remember the media saying he was an anti-semite. That once would have been enough to scare me away from reading or listening to what a man said. But in the (relative) safety of my home (Google and Youtube know), I listened to a speech Father Coughlin made in 1938. In the entire speech I heard nothing I would call anti-semitic. Father Coughlin criticizes both Nazism and Communism, but I can certainly see why Jews branded him an anti-semite. That would be for the same reason they would brand almost everyone on this website an anti-semite; to have him or her discredited, despised and have his or her thoughts suppressed. I’ll give an example; Father Coughlin quotes the periodical “The American Hebrew” from an article they published on September 10, 1920; “the achievement; the Russian-Jewish revolution; destined to figure in history as the overshadowing result of the world war was largely the outcome of Jewish thinking, of Jewish discontent, of Jewish effort to reconstruct.”

    The rest of the speech is a fascinating discussion of what the media was telling people in 1938, shortly before WW II. What Father Coughlin says the media was reporting agrees with what some maligned historians say today about what the New York Times and other media outlets reported during those years. Father Coughlin goes on to discuss how newspapers were ignoring the persecution and murder of Christians in the Soviet Union (which today we know is true: Holodomor, etc.), but the persecution of Jews in Germany was reported every day in the newspapers in 1938. I learned something important from this interview. The same thing was going on then, as has been going on for over sixty years. The Jews controlled the media then already and exercised that control to cover up what might have incited hatred towards them (Jews murdering Christians in the Soviet Union), but browbeat the American public with what NAZI Germany was supposedly doing to Jews in the 1930’s. This supported the efforts of other powerful Jews (such as Weizmann, Morgenthau, Lehman and many others) who were trying to drag the USA into WW II against Germany.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eVMK4pyB_YM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=8vYwRqN-QZw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=awKYOq6RP4Q

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Z4PnJZCiG8I

    Father Coughlin’s speech is a fascinating look into how some people saw the events taking place in the world 65 to 90 years ago. He viewed Nazism as a reaction to Communism. When you look at some of the speeches by Goebbels and others back then, I think it’s a powerful argument and one that I never considered.

  13. pgg804 October 19, 2012 at 3:33 am #

    Taken from David Irving’s website. New and very interesting photos of Jews in Poland in 1940 released. The smiling detainees wearing fashionable clothing belie what the author writes in the article. The author does his best to counteract the impression the reader would naturally get from these photos, which contradict everything we’ve ever been told. That’s why I only skimmed what the author of the article wrote, which I suspect is worthless. The photos however, are invaluable.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219304/Haunting-smile-girl-facing-Holocaust-How-Hitlers-PERSONAL-photographer-captured-history-plight-Jews-Nazi-occupied-Poland.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DPaul%2BHarris

    • fool me once... October 19, 2012 at 8:07 am #

      @pgg804
      I haven’t had time to read the article either but you’re not suggesting things look like a holiday camp for those people living under those conditions are you? Never mind all this about what they’re wearing, what about sanitation and warmth to name but two of the bare necessities?
      Please expand on what you get from the photos.

  14. pgg804 October 19, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

    I’m not familiar with what kind of sanitary facilities they had there, but I’ve never seen fashionably dressed, smiling concentration camp detainees before. I’ve only seen pictures of emaciated bodies (when all of Germany was low on food due to the blockade against them and the crippling of their transportation due to the allied bombing campaign) and piles of corpses that could well have been photos of Dresden or Hamburg. I can tell you by 1945 many people were without heat in Germany too and it took a few years before many places had heat again.

    I think the pictures speak for themselves and your questions are about things you have read or been told probably thousands of times. I thought my statement was pretty clear. One, it looks like the people are being treated pretty well, even having a relaxed conversation with a German officer. It doesn’t look like they are being threatened, beaten, shot at or being killed in gas chambers. It doesn’t look like anyone is chasing after them so they can skin a Jew and make a lampshade out of them or to cut the fat off their bodies to make soap out of them.

    • Roy Bard October 19, 2012 at 1:16 pm #

      the pictures were taken in 1940 – and before some of the subjects were in camps according to the blurb.

      Do you have a link for the pictures on Irving’s site?

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