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Transferring The “Right Of Return”

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Right of Return


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by S©ott Free, & the deLiberation crew 2012

119 Responses to Transferring The “Right Of Return”

  1. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 12:57 am #

    An extraordinary idea! One of those concepts of elegant simplicity about which people later exclaim: “Duh! Why didn’t anyone think of this before?”
    What would happen to the claim of the State for Jews if most of the people on behalf of whom Israel has self-appointed as the guardian of the (Palestinian) land denied and rejected this “right of return”?
    Can a state for ITS OWN CITIZENS be far behind?

  2. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 1:02 am #

    Right now I wish I were Jewish so I could sign it. All I can do is promote it however I can.

    One word of praise–long overdue — for the splendid illustrations (like the one above) that complement the articles on deLiberation. The graphical presentation of this site really sets it apart and above many other sites. Kuddos to the talented and skilled team responsible for it.

    • Gilad Atzmon May 26, 2012 at 3:09 pm #

      Araidna, Paul Eisen and myself offer an instant conversion services. WE can make you into a proud self hater in no time. We will change your name into Ari Theokopolovich.. hope this is ok with you..

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 3:31 pm #

        First of all, thank you both! I am really appreciative, but I will also be blunt in explaining why I have to reject your generous offer of assistance.
        Gays who marry women (whom they fully intend to divorce) just for show, don’t opt for a hasty wedding in a Las Vegas chapel. They always go for the full Monty, church/synagogue ceremony, bridesmaids, gift registry, the works.
        Why would I go for a side-of-the-road conversion done by two amateurs with a QuickJew®Kit when even conversions done in the US in Reform synagogues are not recognized by the Israeli Rabbinate?
        No offense and again, thanks, but no, thanks.

        • Gilad Atzmon May 26, 2012 at 4:29 pm #

          You are right, what a silly offer on my side. Ok we can also teach you how to make chicken soup..

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 10:31 pm #

            Thanks, Gilad. I am glad you didn’t take it the wrong way.
            What I’d really appreciative would be a recipe for hamantaschen. The American Jews just don’t know bupkis about real hamantaschen. They make them soft all over, not crusty on the outside as they are supposed to be and as they make them in Europe. They are so different that going by that alone it is hard to believe there is a “Jewish culture.”

            I believe people should be judged not only by their ethics but also by their gastronomy and by their respect for wine, solid indicators of a culture’s survivability. The state of Israel, promoting instead of banning that Magen David “wine” is doomed to perish. For that and… everything else.

      • searching May 27, 2012 at 3:16 am #

        wait, wait I always thought that in order to be Jewish your mother had to be Jewish, and your father, and your sisters, and your brothers, and your uncles and aunts, grandmas, grandpas, nieces, nephews, cousins, in-laws,ex-in-laws and ex-ex-in-laws, and sometimes even ex-ex-ex-in-laws, and the whole neighborhood/town for that matter ,etc.
        Instant conversion based on a simple name change, and ability of making watery chicken soup??
        Sounds very fishy to me :)
        But …what do I know.

        • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 3:21 am #

          The only instant conversions I know of were done in Peru by traveling rabbis who “identified” the so-called “lost jews” invariably very poor Peruvians who were glad to leave their misery behind and go to Israel–free room and board at first, while they went to the ulpan to learn Hebrew, an opportunity of a better life, and all for the price of learning one prayer in Hebrew. Jose becomes Isaac and makes good settler material.

          • searching May 27, 2012 at 3:36 am #

            talking about Peru reminded me of something very interesting.
            There is this famous POlish traveller, journalist and writer ,Wojciech Cejrowski,
            (a member of Royal Geographical Society ). He wrote in his book about meeting Indians in Peru, who lived in a jungle, in a middle of nowhere and practice the Old Faith, and they are not even Jewish.
            ………
            A fragment from his website.
            “I met a very exotic tribe by the side tributary of the Amazon River. Its members are Indians from the Peruvian Andes, who converted to the Old Faith. One day they left modern civilization and founded their settlement in a distant, cut off from the rest of the world, jungle.

            They live in conformity with the principals of the Old Testament. They sacrifice burnt-offering stokes to God just as in Moses times.

            There is no Jew upon them, however they call themselves the Chosen People.

            I spent the Passover with them. It was the most beautiful Easter in my life: with the meat of a lamb, unleavened bread and “bitter” herbs – all in proper form.”
            There are many ,very interesting photos there.
            http://www.cejrowski.com/en/gallery/index.php?p=izraelitas

          • searching May 27, 2012 at 3:48 am #

            and here an info about Cejrowski himself.
            Great personality, one of the kind.
            Quite a character.
            http://www.cejrowski.com/en/cv/

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 4:11 am #

            It says the founder was a former catholic–could he have been so traumatized by catholicism that he fled to the jungle and created a shtetl on the Amazon where they don’t wish to have contact with the outsiders more than one day a year?

          • searching May 27, 2012 at 2:06 pm #

            I don’t know who was the founder, and why they decided to pracice the OLD Faith in the middle of the Jungle, but I can understand their need to protect themselves against the culture of so-called “civilised man”, whom they problably regard as a barbarian and savage, who always wants more, more for me, me.
            P.S. I wish Cejrowski’s books were translated in English. He writes beautifully about the jungle, people in it that he met etc.
            He also has a terrific sense of humor.

  3. Jonathon Blakeley May 26, 2012 at 1:03 am #

    coool. Its genius.

  4. searching May 26, 2012 at 1:44 am #

    Very neat idea. Although personally, being an awful realist ( not pessimist, just an obnoxious realist), I don’t predict more than a few thousand Jewish people signing it ,( and this is a very optimistic version).
    Results will actually confirm Gilad’s “theory” about Jewish tribal mentality and loyalty.
    And I think they will confirm that Gilad was right. Maybe I am wrong but … I seriously doubt it.
    oh, well, let’s wait. The public will speak.
    In the meantime, we can listen to the beautiful song :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3o2v7qsMgs&feature=related

  5. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 2:16 am #

    A few thousand would be a nice beginning

  6. Somoe May 26, 2012 at 10:21 am #

    An revolutionary and inspired idea, beautifully executed. I look forward to seeing just how many Jews exercise the power invested in them. Heartfelt thanks to all involved for making it possible. May the rightful occupants of the land, return to it, sooner and more peaceably than we ever dreamed. This is co-creation at its very best.

  7. Jonathon Blakeley May 26, 2012 at 11:19 am #

    It will be interesting to see who the first Jews to go for this are? Or whether any Jews will take up offer at all. Time will tell the Mother of all.

  8. Rich Siegel May 26, 2012 at 1:51 pm #

    I was taken aback as I read about this as I actually had this idea a few years ago and was told by Palestinian friends to NOT do it. I was going to set up a website to match up diaspora Jews who are willing to give up “right of return” with Palestinian refugees who want theirs. I was going to match up single people with single people, couples with couples, families of 3 with families of 3, etc., post photos on the website, and when I had enough send everything to the Israeli government and petition transfer of right of return for all the people included.

    Palestinian friends DID NOT LIKE the idea at all. Said that “right of return” was not ours to give. I got the feeling that they thought the idea was fundamentally arrogant, although nobody used the word. So I abandoned the idea. So it’s interesting that someone else thought of it and is acting on it. But I wonder if others will object the way friends of mine did a few years ago. Or have things changed to where this is now acceptable and even appreciated?

    I haven’t signed it. I would like to. I would like to hear from Palestinians about their feelings on it before I do.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 4:07 pm #

      ” I actually had this idea a few years ago”
      Great minds think alike.
      It is perfectly understandable that a Palestinian would react this way to YOUR idea. You actually approached he whole thing in a LITERAL way, attentive to details, matching man for man, woman for woman and couple for couple.
      You were saying to to Palestinians: “I have this right but I wish to renounce it and give it to you. Here you go.”
      The Palestinian, any and ALL Palestinians, know that in reality you have no such right to give and that his, their, right of return is real and unalienable, even if denied by force.
      Pretending it is something you can give as a gift is bound to be received as arrogance and an insult because by “giving” it you are implying they don’t have it inalienably and you are DENYING it again.

      “I would like to hear from Palestinians about their feelings on it before I do.”
      I beg to differ because this is different. This is not pro-Palestinian (except in its effect) political campaign that Palestinians need to join or even agree with. It is, for once, something … between Jews.
      You were taking the Jews’ “right of return” seriously, whereas this is mocking it and challenging it as an absurd LIE which no force of arms imposing it can make real, anymore than it can erase the inalienable right of return of the Palestinians.
      This does not operate “on the ground” in the realm of the checkpoints that bar Palestinians from returning to their land, but in the symbolic domain of inherent rights versus invented rights.
      It is not addressed to the Palestinians but to the Jews in the diaspora, and challenges them to define their relationship to Israel on a crucial point of their representation by the State for Jews.

    • Blake May 27, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

      Personally I don’t think it’s arrogant of you but very noble. Palestine is shrinking in size because they have been so meek and almost apathetic. Your idea at least brings attention to the injustice that was done on them.

  9. Gilad Atzmon May 26, 2012 at 3:05 pm #

    I actually can’t wait to see how many Jews will sign it. This is a brilliant way to test the ethical stand of this collective…

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 4:08 pm #

      EXACTLY.
      Blasted ethics…. they keep getting in the way of exceptionality…

    • Jonathon Blakeley May 26, 2012 at 10:22 pm #

      Gilad

      are you

      British
      Jewish
      A Jew in Britain
      or a British Jew?
      or something else?

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 26, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

        He must have misplaced his jewishness and now, that he needs it to ID himself so he can sign the Transfer, he can’t find it.
        Or he lent it to someone and can’t remember to whom.
        Or dropped on a hard surface and it broke.

      • Gilad Atzmon May 27, 2012 at 7:51 pm #

        i am a sax player!

      • Laura Stuart May 27, 2012 at 7:56 pm #

        Well . . let’s examine the evidence

        He has a British Passport

        He claims to be circumcised

        He “is something else”

    • searching May 27, 2012 at 3:05 am #

      Many will keep their Right to Return to Israsel for the “just in case” reason.
      You know, the pre-TSD is kept alive in Diaspora, so a lot of Jewish people won’t burn their bridges “just in case”.

  10. Jonathon Blakeley May 26, 2012 at 4:44 pm #

    I am reminded of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory…

  11. Somoe May 26, 2012 at 10:22 pm #

    It’s the only way to renounce ‘Jewishness’ in practice.

  12. Laura Stuart May 26, 2012 at 10:30 pm #

    I think Gilad and I should go out on the streets of Golders Green with clipboards and try to get people to sign up.

  13. Rich Siegel May 27, 2012 at 12:41 am #

    Ariadna- Actually I was totally mocking Jewish right to return. But I can understand that it could be TAKEN another way. In my mind I was thumbing my nose at the whole Zionist program. Like- you say I have the right to invade and settle? OK I’m representing a family of three. Here’s a refugee family of three, that DESERVES this in a way that I don’t. I’m giving it to them. Anyway, I’m going to sign this thing. -RS

  14. Rich Siegel May 27, 2012 at 2:12 am #

    Done

    • searching May 27, 2012 at 2:57 am #

      Great. Thumbs up.!!!!
      Now we are waiting for another 7 999 997 to follow. :)

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 3:23 am #

      Great, Rich.

    • deLiberation May 27, 2012 at 9:48 am #

      Very Well done Richard. :-)

  15. Rich Siegel May 27, 2012 at 4:55 am #

    I did put the word out, but I only have 7,999,996 on my mailing list. Sorry. (and some of them might not even be real Jews. Some of these people who are “passing” in Reform and Reconstructionist synagogues actually have Jewish father and non-Jewish mothers. And they call themselves Jews. Chutzpah!)

  16. deLiberation May 27, 2012 at 10:07 am #

    Richard you are a STAR.

  17. Sheldon Richman May 27, 2012 at 12:00 pm #

    I’m in!

  18. Jonathon Blakeley May 27, 2012 at 12:06 pm #

    ;-) Cool Bro.

  19. Sheldon Richman May 27, 2012 at 12:08 pm #

    My Lithuanian zayde was orthodox and anti-Zionist to the core. At our seders each year, when he reached the part in the Haggadah where he was to say, “Next year in Jerusalem,” he would pull a switch with a twinkle in his eye and say: “Next year in Philadelphia!”

    That’s where we were already! I wish he was still around. I wish I knew then what I know now.

    Here’s my story about him.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 1:11 pm #

      Beautiful memories. You are a lucky man to have them. What I find poignant and important in your story is that there are no villains in your family (as is probably the case most often out there, in the ‘diaspora’): only people who have been misled, of whom some instinctively know the right moral path to take and others who find it through arduous search.
      Thank you for posting the link.

  20. Paul Eisen May 27, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    If I were a Palestinian I wouldn’t want some Jew ‘giving’ me anything. Nor does it bring Jews along – it’ll probably just create another ‘good Jew’ category.

    In fact the only possible value in it is that it might sow dissension amongst Jews – and even that’s a dubious benefit.

    • Jonathon Blakeley May 27, 2012 at 12:25 pm #

      Its not directly about the Palestinians, its about re-nouncing Jewishness and the ROR that you have by Birthright. That in itself is a vote against Zionism that costs nothing but a minute of your time.

      But would lose you the Right to return to Israel until its all sorted for the Palestinians benefit.

  21. Sheldon Richman May 27, 2012 at 12:11 pm #

    It need not indicate renunciation of Judaism because a Reform Jew of the classical school could sign enthusiastically.

    • searching May 27, 2012 at 1:57 pm #

      What are the Reform Jews?
      Are they in majority ant–Zionists or pro-Zionists???
      I don’t know too much od them.
      Maybe somebody could enlighten me???

      • Sheldon Richman May 30, 2012 at 1:25 pm #

        Classical Reform barely exists anymore, as far as I can tell. There are a few stalwarts, but that is all.

  22. Sheldon Richman May 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm #

    Paul, a Palestinian shouldn’t see it as a literal presumptuous transfer of a right (rights are inalienable) but rather as a stunt to make a worthwhile point and to advance discussion.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 1:12 pm #

      Well put.

    • Paul Eisen May 28, 2012 at 4:44 am #

      The trouble is Sheldon, you’re ‘good deed’ just accentuates their dependence – not a nice feeling for anyone. And since, like most of these stunts, it’s unlikel;y to achieve much, what’s the point?

      • Jonathon Blakeley May 28, 2012 at 9:04 pm #

        I am surprised you were not one of the first one’s to go for this Paul. Its no stunt, every little bit helps. If significant numbers of Jews in the Diaspora renounced their “right of return”, it would have a significant effect. But if hardly any jews in the Diaspora can make that sacrifice then what hope for the Palestinians?

      • Sheldon Richman May 30, 2012 at 1:27 pm #

        I do not reject your viewpoint, Paul. I see the point. I would like to see reaction from Palestinian individuals. If I have a sense that what I have done is offensive or patronizing, I will retract my renunciation at once.

  23. Rich Siegel May 27, 2012 at 1:28 pm #

    Going with Sheldon on this one. This is NOT about renunciation of Jewish religion or Jewishness (even though I have personally renounced these things for myself.) There has been a strong anti-Zionist tradition in the Jewish community, even though in recent years that point of view has been totally marginalized. Jews may sign this thing and still remain totally Jewish.

  24. Sheldon Richman May 27, 2012 at 2:08 pm #

    I have renounced all but the love of universal justice expressed by the Prophets. I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to say that all but the love of justice constitutes idolatry, even worship of “God.”

    • Rich Siegel May 28, 2012 at 12:01 pm #

      Worship of One God is not idolatry- except for when the worshipper anthropomorphizes God, and many people do. Grasping that there is One Love back of all that exists, also back of the desire for justice, is an essential understanding, antithetical to idolatry.

      • Rich Siegel May 28, 2012 at 12:19 pm #

        PS- From the letterhead of this website:

        Thich Nhat Hanh
        We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness.

        That is not idolatry.

        -RS

      • Sheldon Richman May 28, 2012 at 1:02 pm #

        What I am getting at is the God-idea has a way of leading people to take their eye on the ball: the moral principles that the Prophets preached. People seem to want to reify what cannot be reified.

  25. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm #

    “And on the appointed day deLiberation gathered all the righteous jews who had signed their names on the Transferring covenant and said unto them:

    ‘Come hither for thou shall be saved, but do not look back or thou shall be turned into pillars of salt.’
    And the jews gladly followed and left the desolate and corrupt land of Prevarication without looking back.
    And they entered the feast hall and sat down to celebrate.
    And the server approached deLiberation and said: ‘Forgive me, Sire, but I have a big party next door in the Prevarication Salon down the corridor.
    May I take the 4th chair here or are you still expecting another guest?
    And deLiberation whispered: “No. You may take it.”

    I hope not!

  26. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 7:52 pm #

    I am not going to ask “How many?” because it is early yet but I imagine that each “good Jew” (Paul’s somewhat sneering term) who has signed has also informed all of his ‘good jew” friends about it and they’ll all sign.

  27. Rich Siegel May 28, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

    Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. And that was probably a Jewish statement, too!

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 9:31 pm #

      What’s the self pity all about? You are one of the only two (that we know about because you did it openly) who put your vote where your mouth is. Why would you be damned?

  28. Blake May 28, 2012 at 9:51 pm #

    Tried to link this article to Mondoweiss in a comment on one of their threads regarding the Nakba but it did not see the light of day.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

      Try Haaretz. :-)

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 10:00 pm #

        I mean the English edition, naturally, which the AZZ in the diaspora read

        • Blake May 28, 2012 at 10:29 pm #

          Lol.Been there done that. Haaretz NEVER print a comment of mine. Gave up trying ages ago. Mondoweiss do print comments of mine but some don’t see the light of day. I have a feeling they don’t like humanist Gilad Atzmon.

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 10:34 pm #

            “Haaretz NEVER print a comment of mine. Gave up trying ages ago. ”

            Same here. That’s why I encouraged you, not knowing you are non-grata as well

  29. deLiberation May 28, 2012 at 10:32 pm #

    We have added some refinements to our FORM, thanks to AEMA for the feedback.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos May 28, 2012 at 10:39 pm #

      Is that our aema? If so I think that might count as points for his reinstatement

  30. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 29, 2012 at 3:32 pm #

    Hurry up signers, soon it may be too late:

    “US Congressman Works to Strip Millions of Palestinians of Refugee Status

    A new bill introduced in the US Congress by Republican Representative Mark Kirk would call for the US government to demand that a United Nations agency serving Palestinian refugees provide a count of how many were actually displaced by the creation of the state of Israel, and how many are the descendants of those displaced. The count would then be used to deny the universally-recognized right of return to the descendants of the original refugees (children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren).

    Millions of Palestinian refugees, both the originally displaced refugees and their descendants since 1948, live in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, and are denied full citizenship of any nation. After the displacement of approximately 3/4 of a million Palestinians for the creation of the state of Israel in 1948, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) was created to provide assistance, protection and advocacy for the refugees. Another wave of refugees was created in 1967 when Israel took over more territory and displaced hundreds of thousands of additional Palestinians.

    The proposed US legislation, which is part of the 2013 Foreign Appropriations Bill, will challenge the refugee status of the children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren of refugees displaced in 1948 and 67, and will call on the United Nations to withdraw their status as refugees. This would leave millions of Palestinians stateless, with no status as humans, and no way to receive the assistance they need to survive.”

    Gilad said it is cheaper for Israel to buy a US congressman than a tank. He is correct:

    Representative Mark Kirk received $1,025,437 [about $100,00/yr] from ‘pro-Israel’ PACs between 2000 and 2010

    http://www.imemc.org/article/63599

  31. Ariadna Theokopoulos May 29, 2012 at 5:37 pm #

    Interesting, thanks for posting.
    The AIPAC man asks indignantly:
    “”How many generations does it go?” asked Rosen. “I’m Jewish, and as a grandchild of several refugees, could I make a claim on all these countries? Where does it end?”

    Can you imagine the uproar and shouts of “anti-semitism!” if the Germans were to say ” “”How many generations does it go?” and Where does it end?” in response to Israel now claiming that the offspring of holocaust survivors, born after the war, are suffering trauma due to the tales trauma their parents told them they suffered and therefore they too need to be compensated.

  32. Jonathon Blakeley June 2, 2012 at 2:45 pm #

    I have a confession, my grandfather was a self-hating Jew who abandoned his family and culture. So technically I could be at most 25% Jewish 75% Yorkshire. Please don’t hold this against me I have SIgned up and I never wont to go to Israel in its current form. Better safe than sorry. :-)

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 2, 2012 at 8:38 pm #

      One of my grandmothers (unfortunately on my father’s, not my mother’s side) always claimed to be Greek Orthodox but she had a strange and suspicious maiden name (not quite Jewish, just odd and uncommon) and there were whispers in the family that she might have been Jewish but I think the reason why nobody dared to ask her was fear. Fear that any upset might have interrupted the flow of imambaialdí, kataifs, mousaka, apple strudels, and baclava.
      We were an obtuse and anti-intellectual family who placed eating well above knowledge. She shared her deep secrets with me when I was too young to realize their value (when and where to use tahini, saffron and nutmeg) but not that one, if indeed there was one.
      I don’t suppose I can sign as a “suspected Jew,” or may I?

      • Jonathon Blakeley June 2, 2012 at 9:02 pm #

        If in doubt about your Jewishness sign up, Yes Grandparents count.
        What you got to lose?

        • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 2, 2012 at 11:08 pm #

          Maybe she was a self-hating Jew. The strongest indicator is that she used to say that chicken soup is the poor man’s beef bouillon. An anti-semite would say that.

          • Jonathon Blakeley June 2, 2012 at 11:20 pm #

            I am not into self hate myself, or Self love either, I am more of a self humorist. ;-)

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 2, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

            While every bit helps, I hope that The Transferring list does not depend on octaroons like you and doubtful octaroons like me to achieve a decent showing :-)

  33. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 4, 2012 at 5:13 pm #

    Do you have enough memory in your computer to hold the list of signatories?

  34. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 6, 2012 at 7:08 pm #

    I have just bought a bottle of excellent Argentinean wine — a marriage made in heaven between Pinot Noir and Cabernet Sauvignon.
    I will toast the Transferring the Right of Return tonight. May the list grow!

  35. Alex July 26, 2012 at 1:00 pm #

    “Very neat idea. Although personally, being an awful realist ( not pessimist, just an obnoxious realist), I don’t predict more than a few thousand Jewish people signing it ,( and this is a very optimistic version).
    Results will actually confirm Gilad’s “theory” about Jewish tribal mentality and loyalty.
    And I think they will confirm that Gilad was right. Maybe I am wrong but … I seriously doubt it.”

    Searching
    You are so optimistic..

    As an uprooted palestinian, I reject your “generous” offer of transferring your so-called right of return to me, simply, because non of you have that right.
    I know my response may disappoint many,
    However, let us wait and see how many Lord Balfours we have.
    transferring

  36. Alex July 26, 2012 at 1:41 pm #

    I would have appreciated if the title was: Rejecting the Jewish “Right of Return”
    If few thosand, as ecpected by searching would vote yes, I guess few tens wold say yes to the altertive title.

  37. Alex July 26, 2012 at 3:38 pm #

    Looks Like i spoiled the party

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos July 26, 2012 at 4:13 pm #

      No, you make an excellent point.
      It should have indeed been called
      Rejecting the Right of Return, not “transferring” it.

  38. Jonathon Blakeley July 26, 2012 at 5:28 pm #

    Indeed Alex good points, other made the similar claims. But I think the idea was to use Jewish ROR against them. Admittedly the Jewish state is based on false premise but here we are 60 years on.

    Rejecting the Jewish “Right of Return” would have been more accurate but perhaps less positive. Anyway aside from less then 10 who accepted the challenge… no one was interested.

    Sad really… but there you are and here we are. :-(

    • Alex July 26, 2012 at 6:17 pm #

      I am curious to know out the less than 10 who accepted “giving-up” their ROR, how many would accept the challange of rejecting it. I know only ONE.

  39. fool me once... July 26, 2012 at 5:32 pm #

    @Alex
    “I would have appreciated if the title was: Rejecting the Jewish “Right of Return””
    For some reason that’s what I read it as, the jews rejecting the ridiculous expectation that they have some kind of “right” to live in Palestine. How can they “return” to somewhere that they’ve never been to or got anything to do with. The sooner they’re all kicked out the better.
    “Rejecting the Jewish “Right of Return”” would make a good thread.

    • Jonathon Blakeley July 26, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

      @ ALex and @Fool_Me_once

      Ok I have not given up on this thread yet…
      Rejecting the Jewish Right of return it is..

      Lets get our thinking caps on and see how we can make this meme better… based on this first attempt.

      It srikes me that Jewishness is defined by 4 key things.

      1. Parents/grandparents
      2. Circumcision
      3. Holocaust
      4. Right of return.

      These 4 things in my humble opinion are the focus around which Jewish Ideology clusters.

      To question the validity on these core concepts is to question the essence of Jewishness.

      • fool me once... July 26, 2012 at 7:35 pm #

        “To question the validity on these core concepts is to question the essence of Jewishness.”
        For me, just thinking out loud, talking about these subjects is just giving the jews the spotlight and attention in a way where the don’t have to concede anything of value. They love being the centre of attention and have a massive list of rebuffs for the criticisms they encounter.
        I thought Nahida’s thread a while back called “Breaking the Chains of Arrogance” was getting to the nitty gritty.
        The whole jew trip is built on a foundation of arrogance, period. You even see it with the resident jews on this site, and the thing is, they don’t even seem to be aware they’re doing it. They probably call it confidence, but it ain’t, it’s pure arrogance.
        They elbow their way to the front of the Palestinian Struggle and call the jew state all kinds of sh*t, but when it comes to rejecting their free pass to a place in the holy land they wont have none of it. I don’t trust ‘em. I want to see some humility and some giving, until it hurts, consistently, not making a living off the back of the Palestinian suffering. Not one penny, not one schekl should be made by any jew if their “work” involves, referring to or even mentioning the Palestinians.
        Occupying someone’s land, murdering the innocent people, torturing the prisoners, making innocent people stand in lines everyday at checkpoints, preventing innocent people from meeting up with their families for decades etc etc – all done by the State of the jews.
        Question – why would anyone want to be part of that.
        Answer – Because they’re arrogant bastards.
        .
        Ok, that just come bursting out, but that’s what’s in my heart.

        • Laura Stuart July 26, 2012 at 8:03 pm #

          You are absolutely correct.

          The Quran tells me all I need to know about Jewish arrogance, I often say to Gilad I don’t need to read his book or listen to his lectures because the One who Created the Bani Israel told us all of their traits. Why else would the Bani Israel be incurring Allah’s wrath?

          As a person who believes, I feel that it is inevitable that the Jews will bring their own downfall, yet again.

          Regards this website it is very Jew Centric even the humour and the posters who want to be so clever and poke fun are just typical, of the whole “it’s all about the Jews” mentality. Arrogance comes in many forms.

          http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/termination.htm

        • fool me once... July 26, 2012 at 8:16 pm #

          http://www.danikoesterich.com/2008/10/11/why-do-jews-suck/
          I know this doesn’t represent all jewish thinking but there’s loads of it about. Where’s the big posse of jews saying “not in name I don’t subscribe to that arrogant superior take on the jewish belief system.”?
          btw the link is pro jew contrary to the title. :D

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos July 26, 2012 at 8:24 pm #

            That was one of the most disgusting pieces of self-adulation I ever read.

          • fool me once... July 26, 2012 at 9:14 pm #

            @Laura
            “Why else would the Bani Israel be incurring Allah’s wrath?”
            If that’s the case, why is it the gentle innocent people get the sh*tty end of the stick as well?
            Going by your thinking, what did the Palestinians do to incur Allah’s wrath? If Allah can do big things why isn’t Allah protecting the Palestinians and giving them some respite? This oppression is world over.
            When people start talking about what “God” thinks, it all gets a bit silly. That’s a kind of arrogance in itself saying that “God” does this or that because… as if you know. Be honest, it makes you feel important. Look at all the rowing on deLib from people who claim to know what the the big G thinks.
            “God” does what “God” wants and it’s all beyond our comprehension – it’s probably just best just get a bit humblyfied and do yer best to help and not to wreck lives.

        • Paul Eisen July 27, 2012 at 6:25 am #

          “You even see it with the resident jews on this site, and the thing is, they don’t even seem to be aware they’re doing it. They probably call it confidence, but it ain’t, it’s pure arrogance.
          They elbow their way to the front of the Palestinian Struggle and call the jew state all kinds of sh*t, but when it comes to rejecting their free pass to a place in the holy land they wont have none of it. I don’t trust ‘em.”

          Who are you referering to here Fool me Once? Me, obviously from previous comments of yours, but who else?

          • fool me once... July 27, 2012 at 7:43 am #

            Paul wrote;
            “If I were a Palestinian I wouldn’t want some Jew ‘giving’ me anything.”
            “And since, like most of these stunts, it’s unlikel;y to achieve much, what’s the point?”
            Do you reject your right of return Paul? It’s not about “some jew giving” the Palestinians anything – except a bit of respect.
            Will you describe here the feelings you have when you’ve visited “israel”. Did you enjoy it and why?

          • Paul Eisen July 27, 2012 at 8:03 am #

            I neither accept it nor reject it. I’m not going through elaborate rituals or stunts for you.

            Regarding my feelings on visiting Israel, I’ve written about them many times and they’re dotted all over posts and comments on this site.

            But you didn’t answer my question. Is that because there is no-one else or because you don’t wish to name them?

          • fool me once... July 27, 2012 at 8:49 am #

            @Paul
            “Is that because there is no-one else or because you don’t wish to name them?”
            JB wrote;
            “Anyway aside from less then 10 who accepted the challenge… no one was interested.”
            Therefore my comments are not just directed at you.
            “I’m not going through elaborate rituals or stunts for you.”
            Rejecting the right of return would not be for my gratification. It’s simply an affirmative action to show that you recognise that you have no right to the Palestinians land, hardly an “elaborate ritual” What’s the problem?
            “I neither accept it nor reject it.” would you agree that could be interpreted as sitting on the fence and keeping your options open?

          • Paul Eisen July 27, 2012 at 9:23 am #

            It could be interpreted as that, or it could be interpreted that at heart I’m a deeply committed Zionist, or it could be interpreted that I don’t like being pressured, or it could be committed that I like to keep my options open, or it could be interpreted that I don’t like Inquisitions, or it could be interpreted that I don’t like stunts, or it could be interpreted that I’m a Mossad agent or it could be interpreted that I’m secretly working for you and trying to generally discredit Jews, or it could be interpreted that I don’t know, or it could be interpreted that it’s all too complicated, or it could be interpreted that that’s just another way of saying I accept it, or it could be interpreted that I find my ‘giving’ Palestinians something like that offensive to Palestinians….I could, I’m sure go on for ages. But in any event, I’m not accepting or rejecting it for you or for anyone else and of course you can interpret that any way you like.

            But back to the original question: My recollection is that, at the time there were only a few Jews on the site – Rich Siegal, Sheldon Richmond and myself (There may have been others like Mathis, Cosmo etc but I don’t think they were really in the discussion). Anyway, as far as I remember both Rich and Sheldon thought it was a great idea and were very happy to sign. I didn’t, for all the reasons I’ve given.

          • fool me once... July 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm #

            @Paul
            ““I neither accept it nor reject it.”
            “I’m not accepting or rejecting it for you or for anyone else and of course you can interpret that any way you like.”
            I will, but anyway thanks for your permission ;) .
            Ok, I’ll try and set out where I’m coming from. Jewish people have the Law of Return.
            The Law of Return 5710-1950 was enacted by the israeli Parliament on July 5, 1950. The Law of Return was modified in 1970 to also include non-Jews with a Jewish grandparent, and their spouses.
            For me,jews who recognise, understand and support the Palestinian struggle, yet retain their privilege over the exiled indigenous population, well, there’s a conflict of interests. The vast majority of world jewry have no problem with a jewish state based in Palestine on occupied land. By retaining this “birth right” a statement is made
            “I covert the Palestinian homeland and will cash in as and when I see fit”.
            By rejecting this “birth right” it goes some way to showing an unambiguous stance in the quest for justice.
            How can one say that they support the struggle yet hold the deeds to stolen land of those being oppressed? “Burning” the falsely manufactured deeds is a start to rejecting the whole jewish supremacist methodology.
            .
            As far as you getting all unhappy and over-sensitive about comments made on threads, well it comes with the territory, when you say “The Jewishness you rightly pick up is, in my view, more in the Jewish tendency to wish to disrupt and unsettle, in this case, certainly shock.”
            If you put out opinions wrapped in the “Jewish tendency” don’t be surprised if you’re taken seriously now and then.
            Like you say Paul, you’ll do as you please and you don’t have to justify yourself to no-one. Well good for you and the smug Woody Allen persona you’ve created works well.
            Maybe it’s the feeling I get, that you perceive yourself as “the teacher” setting topics for the “class” to discuss that irks me some what. Yeah I know, that’s my problem. :D

          • Paul Eisen July 27, 2012 at 6:06 pm #

            I don’t dispute everything you say by any means, but I’m still not going to do what, for whatever reason, I don’t want to do just because you see it as proof of something.

            You’re also beginning to personalise this which is something you’re going to have to do on your own.

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos July 27, 2012 at 12:29 pm #

            Like Paul, I also dislike inquisitorial posts and personal badgering (he did not say the last bit, I am saying it).
            I fail to see what you hope to accomplish — do you think Paul has not examined the proposition and you can explain and clarify it? Do you want him to put his decision in words that you select?
            What interpretation do you think is needed?

          • fool me once... July 27, 2012 at 6:02 pm #

            Ha ha are you serious? Remember, he’s a big boy and freely admits a liking for being the centre of attention. There was no nastiness in my comments, so what’s with the ticking off?

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos July 27, 2012 at 6:18 pm #

            Dead serious.
            I don’t like badgering. Your post may be appropriately addressed to someone whom you consider a hypocrite, masquerading as something he is not, which is not the case. Whether or not you agree with Paul’s position or his ambiguity, they are his, no dissimulation. No hypocrisy.

        • Jonathon Blakeley July 27, 2012 at 8:46 am #

          You are right arrogance is at the heart of it, or Pride the mother of all sins as I said on the infamous “Breaking the chains”.

          Its is very sad, I must say I was disappointed and very dis-illusioned,

          • fool me once... July 27, 2012 at 6:04 pm #

            “I must say I was disappointed…”
            Me too!

  40. Alex July 26, 2012 at 5:58 pm #

    Ariadna

    I was wondering who would be the first to comment on my statements?

    Bassed on your comments, here and their, I expected you.
    I do appreciate your carraige.

    After reading the first para of the “extraordinary” offer I recalled all Zionist’s “generous and painfull” offers, especially Baraks Generous offer in camp David, who he refused a symbolic reurn of some 100,000 Palestinians (Above 60) over 15 or 20 years. He even refused even to mention the Palestinians ROR in the preamable, because it is an admision that the So-called Israel is build on land thefted form Palestinian natives.

    So there is a huge difference between “Transfering” the right and “rejecting” it.

    It took Gilad, the Hebrew speaking palestinian, many years before he realized that the place he was born in was in fact occupied Palestine.

    In rejecting the “God given Jewish right of return”, you reject not only the Zionist crimes and injustice, you reject the existance of “Israel”.

    Finally, my real problem is not with the so-called “Diaspora” Jew, it with Jews occupying Palestine, all Palestine.

  41. Ariadna Theokopoulos July 26, 2012 at 8:13 pm #

    I agree with you completely except for this:

    “Finally, my real problem is not with the so-called “Diaspora” Jew, it with Jews occupying Palestine, all Palestine.”

    The jews who occupy Palestine would not be there without the support of the Jews still living in their countries, whose governments their Lobby bends to their will. A zionist is a zionist is a zionist wherever he plies his manipulation.

  42. Alex July 26, 2012 at 9:26 pm #

    Arianda
    I agree, but I meant jews such as Neturei Karta, not Zionist, and off course not zionist lobbies

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos July 26, 2012 at 9:30 pm #

      Neturei Karta are as numerous a hen’s teeth and they as much influence as a bavckrub to a dead body–mixing metaphors disgustingly here….
      At any rate I am wondering if the zionists do not actually find use for them in the West to show the “diversity of opinion” among Jews

  43. Ariadna Theokopoulos July 26, 2012 at 9:32 pm #

    Corrected:Neturei Karta are as numerous a hen’s teeth and they have as much influence as a backrub to a dead body–mixing metaphors disgustingly here….
    At any rate I am wondering if the zionists do not actually find use for them in the West to show the “diversity of opinion” among Jews

    • who_me July 27, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

      you missed one:

      “Corrected:Neturei” ;)

  44. fool me once... July 26, 2012 at 10:14 pm #

    “At any rate I am wondering if the zionists do not actually find use for them in the West to show the “diversity of opinion” among Jews”
    It’s crossed my mind also as time’s gone by. Their narrative is basically the same trip. They believe “when the times right” that they’ve got a “god given right” to a place there. Rather than kick the front door in, they believe that god will sort out all the necessaries.

  45. Alex July 26, 2012 at 10:38 pm #

    Why not give them the benifit of doubt?

    Back to the subject: transfering the “right of return”

    Since 1948, and 1967 and till this very moment they failed to find a single evidence suporting their claim.
    They failed to apply the the Old Testament history on Palestine’s Geography. We have to distinc between the ancient Hebrews “sons of Israel” and the “Khazar Jews” and “Judaism”.

    More here
    On
    Top of the Ten Reasons East Jerusalem does not belong to Jewish-Israelis: “The
    Bible Came From Arabia”,

  46. Daniel Mabsout July 27, 2012 at 9:12 pm #

    This is a good initiative that is very appreciated .

    The Empire has deluded us by making us believe that the establishment of israel was something unique to the unique Jews while in fact it is one chapterand copy in a series of many chapters and copies the earlier one being that of the Natives of America where the white settlers assumed the identity of Jews while the Native Indigenous were considered as the Canaanites.The colonization of America and of Palestine by white settlers was in no way based on something ethical or righteous -despite their religious interpretations and ethical claims – for it to be passed from the settler to the native by righteous or legal means .This right has to be taken from the usurpers and by the tools of force and not of ethics. Because of this the Palestinans’ rights cannot be retrieved by means other than suitable force.

  47. Ariadna Theokopoulos July 27, 2012 at 9:20 pm #

    True.

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