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	<title>Comments on: The Sun Always Sets on Deir Yassin by Esti Rimmer</title>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 May 2013 02:17:19 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Sarah Gillespie</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-12015</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Gillespie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jul 2012 15:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-12015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ Ariadna, I squirmed when I read the piece. The Nakba seems to be absorbed into the impressive mise-en-scène of Jewish suffering from the ‘grapevines of Transylvania’ to the ‘melancholic’ King Saul. I find her flowery style unctuous &amp; have an allergy to the word ‘soul’ which she shoves in there 3 times: ‘tortured souls’, ‘tormented souls’ and ‘survivors whose souls had long ago been murdered.’ She invites us to count the metaphysical holocaust on top of the physical one - while allegedly championing the Palestinian plight.  Then I read the piece again and was more forgiving. I think there is an absence of descriptions of Palestinian suffering precisely because Palestinian suffering was invisible to her. The writer is looking back at her childhood impressions. It’s not possible for her to describe something she couldn’t see. Instead she describes lashings of Jewish ‘torment’ because that is what she was involuntarily marinated in. The piece charts her transformation from an Israeli-born child gazing out of her bedroom window - to an accountable adult now living (I understand) in exile.She ends with:-

“Look at the beautiful view” but don’t see and don’t accept that the children of the old and sick people in the hospital are the ones responsible for uprooting, expelling, exiling, killing, tormenting and humiliating other people’s children.

Re my comment‘perhaps this is what we need’. I don’t know where you’re from or where you live, but German philosophy &amp; culture is conspicuously lacking from British pedagogy. Instead of Heidegger &amp; Nietzsche we are spoon-fed the French post war thinkers who receive a lot of credit for German concepts. In Britain there is a demonization of Germans that you internalise by osmosis (unlike France where they were occupied). Therefore, anything that humanises the German experience, albeit gushing descriptions of locally grown foodstuffs relished by children running in the ‘caressing sun, barefoot and free’ - - might help the British perceive Germans as people rather than Jew-killers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Ariadna, I squirmed when I read the piece. The Nakba seems to be absorbed into the impressive mise-en-scène of Jewish suffering from the ‘grapevines of Transylvania’ to the ‘melancholic’ King Saul. I find her flowery style unctuous &amp; have an allergy to the word ‘soul’ which she shoves in there 3 times: ‘tortured souls’, ‘tormented souls’ and ‘survivors whose souls had long ago been murdered.’ She invites us to count the metaphysical holocaust on top of the physical one &#8211; while allegedly championing the Palestinian plight.  Then I read the piece again and was more forgiving. I think there is an absence of descriptions of Palestinian suffering precisely because Palestinian suffering was invisible to her. The writer is looking back at her childhood impressions. It’s not possible for her to describe something she couldn’t see. Instead she describes lashings of Jewish ‘torment’ because that is what she was involuntarily marinated in. The piece charts her transformation from an Israeli-born child gazing out of her bedroom window &#8211; to an accountable adult now living (I understand) in exile.She ends with:-</p>
<p>“Look at the beautiful view” but don’t see and don’t accept that the children of the old and sick people in the hospital are the ones responsible for uprooting, expelling, exiling, killing, tormenting and humiliating other people’s children.</p>
<p>Re my comment‘perhaps this is what we need’. I don’t know where you’re from or where you live, but German philosophy &amp; culture is conspicuously lacking from British pedagogy. Instead of Heidegger &amp; Nietzsche we are spoon-fed the French post war thinkers who receive a lot of credit for German concepts. In Britain there is a demonization of Germans that you internalise by osmosis (unlike France where they were occupied). Therefore, anything that humanises the German experience, albeit gushing descriptions of locally grown foodstuffs relished by children running in the ‘caressing sun, barefoot and free’ &#8211; - might help the British perceive Germans as people rather than Jew-killers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariadna Theokopoulos</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11950</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariadna Theokopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11950</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I can well imagine appreciating a piece about the contradictions between the beauty of Germany and German-ness and the brutality of the NS regime. In fact, in those days when I was affected by the narrative of German barbarity, I was very struck by the close proximity of Dachau to the beautiful city of Munich.&quot;

Your comparison, Paul, is off by a good bit.
The Germans did not exactly invade Brobidjan, did not expulse and ethnic cleanse the local jewish population and then set about to create the beautiful city of Munchen on top of rqzed Jewish villages, claiming the tribes called Germani used to live there thousands of years ago.
Your comparison amazingly ignores no more no less than the whole Nakbah, reducing it to acts of &quot;barbarity and brutality occuring in an anhistoric and amputated context. 
Germans were creating beauty, art, science and philosophy long before the holocaust--centuries before. So you can safely admire their cultural products. Admiring Tel Aviv and Israeli architecture is another matter.

I have no problem with the author because she is Jewish. I think that jewishness is not a sentence to permanent blindness without appeal. 
The fact that you find the objections expressed here baffling and alarming is a source of sadness and discouragement for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I can well imagine appreciating a piece about the contradictions between the beauty of Germany and German-ness and the brutality of the NS regime. In fact, in those days when I was affected by the narrative of German barbarity, I was very struck by the close proximity of Dachau to the beautiful city of Munich.&#8221;</p>
<p>Your comparison, Paul, is off by a good bit.<br />
The Germans did not exactly invade Brobidjan, did not expulse and ethnic cleanse the local jewish population and then set about to create the beautiful city of Munchen on top of rqzed Jewish villages, claiming the tribes called Germani used to live there thousands of years ago.<br />
Your comparison amazingly ignores no more no less than the whole Nakbah, reducing it to acts of &#8220;barbarity and brutality occuring in an anhistoric and amputated context.<br />
Germans were creating beauty, art, science and philosophy long before the holocaust&#8211;centuries before. So you can safely admire their cultural products. Admiring Tel Aviv and Israeli architecture is another matter.</p>
<p>I have no problem with the author because she is Jewish. I think that jewishness is not a sentence to permanent blindness without appeal.<br />
The fact that you find the objections expressed here baffling and alarming is a source of sadness and discouragement for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariadna Theokopoulos</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11946</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariadna Theokopoulos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 21:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Like Ariadna I initially baulked at the tone of this piece.&quot;
And then? What happened after &quot;initially&quot;? Please explain what changed tour mind.

&quot;However, perhaps this is what we need.&quot;
What is the &quot;this&quot; that we need exactly, Sarah? Please clarify.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Like Ariadna I initially baulked at the tone of this piece.&#8221;<br />
And then? What happened after &#8220;initially&#8221;? Please explain what changed tour mind.</p>
<p>&#8220;However, perhaps this is what we need.&#8221;<br />
What is the &#8220;this&#8221; that we need exactly, Sarah? Please clarify.</p>
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		<title>By: fool me once...</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11939</link>
		<dc:creator>fool me once...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 20:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11939</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I think the real reason people don’t like it is because Esti is Jewish and any attempt to engage with any Jewish expression is somehow going soft in our taken-for-granted opposition to Jewish power.
That in itself is, to my mind, nonsense.&quot;
Don&#039;t you think the fact that because Esti is jewish, it will have a bearing on how her opinion is received. It&#039;s par for the course. If a gang unprovoked, murders and violates a village of innocent people, then any member or relative of that gang is going to be scrutinised intensely when offering their view of said events by anyone in true solidarity with the villagers. Deir Yassin was a jew crime, end of. 
When you and Esti start reaching out to interface with goy grief, intertwining talk of beautiful sunsets, interesting jewish ideological visual ‘eye&#039;s’, engaging modern jewish architecture etc, well your emotions  just come across as insincere. Maybe that&#039;s one of the many downsides to being a jew loving jew. If you appear not to have the basic humanistic qualities then don&#039;t act all surprised if people don&#039;t trust your motivations. All the flapping on about the holocaust for decades has seriously upset the jews sense of proportion and emotional perspective. 
Remember the Carmel fire appeal? Watch this and feel the emotional tugging on your purse strings whilst they evoke the golden calf holocaust hustle.
The big laugh is at 1.15mins but see if you can watch the whole thing and still think these people are ever going to fit in anywhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l34FFErTTYE
.
&quot;I love Tel-Aviv&quot; speaking as a goy, there&#039;s no doubt Paul you&#039;re into Jewish power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I think the real reason people don’t like it is because Esti is Jewish and any attempt to engage with any Jewish expression is somehow going soft in our taken-for-granted opposition to Jewish power.<br />
That in itself is, to my mind, nonsense.&#8221;<br />
Don&#8217;t you think the fact that because Esti is jewish, it will have a bearing on how her opinion is received. It&#8217;s par for the course. If a gang unprovoked, murders and violates a village of innocent people, then any member or relative of that gang is going to be scrutinised intensely when offering their view of said events by anyone in true solidarity with the villagers. Deir Yassin was a jew crime, end of.<br />
When you and Esti start reaching out to interface with goy grief, intertwining talk of beautiful sunsets, interesting jewish ideological visual ‘eye&#8217;s’, engaging modern jewish architecture etc, well your emotions  just come across as insincere. Maybe that&#8217;s one of the many downsides to being a jew loving jew. If you appear not to have the basic humanistic qualities then don&#8217;t act all surprised if people don&#8217;t trust your motivations. All the flapping on about the holocaust for decades has seriously upset the jews sense of proportion and emotional perspective.<br />
Remember the Carmel fire appeal? Watch this and feel the emotional tugging on your purse strings whilst they evoke the golden calf holocaust hustle.<br />
The big laugh is at 1.15mins but see if you can watch the whole thing and still think these people are ever going to fit in anywhere.<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l34FFErTTYE" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l34FFErTTYE</a><br />
.<br />
&#8220;I love Tel-Aviv&#8221; speaking as a goy, there&#8217;s no doubt Paul you&#8217;re into Jewish power.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Eisen</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11937</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Eisen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s very true. the buildings are a yeshiva (Jewish religious school) and they&#039;re built like fortresses - just one of the striking contradictions.

Yes, a lot of what the Israelis have built is ugly but there are things I like very much. I love Tel-Aviv and in Jerusalem, as much as I dislike the politics of it, some of the modern &#039;Jewish&#039; architecture is quite engaging.

Actually, I think the Israelis have quite an interesting ideological visual &#039;eye&#039;. And nowhere more so than in the views from Yad Vashem. 

Unfortunately for them (unless they did it purposely, but I doubt that), it&#039;s looking straight at Deir Yassin - an irony that they may one day come to appreciate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s very true. the buildings are a yeshiva (Jewish religious school) and they&#8217;re built like fortresses &#8211; just one of the striking contradictions.</p>
<p>Yes, a lot of what the Israelis have built is ugly but there are things I like very much. I love Tel-Aviv and in Jerusalem, as much as I dislike the politics of it, some of the modern &#8216;Jewish&#8217; architecture is quite engaging.</p>
<p>Actually, I think the Israelis have quite an interesting ideological visual &#8216;eye&#8217;. And nowhere more so than in the views from Yad Vashem. </p>
<p>Unfortunately for them (unless they did it purposely, but I doubt that), it&#8217;s looking straight at Deir Yassin &#8211; an irony that they may one day come to appreciate.</p>
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		<title>By: who_me</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11933</link>
		<dc:creator>who_me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 18:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11933</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[looking at the photo, those buildings are quite ugly. the way they dominate the landscape reminds me of some of ugliest scenes of suburban sprawl in southern california. israelis sure know how to destroy beauty, i&#039;ll give them their &quot;specialness&quot; in that regard.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>looking at the photo, those buildings are quite ugly. the way they dominate the landscape reminds me of some of ugliest scenes of suburban sprawl in southern california. israelis sure know how to destroy beauty, i&#8217;ll give them their &#8220;specialness&#8221; in that regard.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Eisen</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11930</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Eisen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11930</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually I can well imagine appreciating a piece about the contradictions between the beauty of Germany and German-ness and the brutality of the NS regime. In fact, in those days when I was affected by the narrative of German barbarity, I was very struck by the close proximity of Dachau to the beautiful city of Munich.

So I&#039;m really baffled by what Ariadna, Fool Me Once and, to some extent, Sarah find so alarming.

The landscape around Deir Yassin is truly breathtaking and Esti Rimmer uses that as a metaphor to convey her own feelings of living so close in space, time and spirit to a terrible atrocity.

I think the real reason people don&#039;t like it is because Esti is Jewish and any attempt to engage with any Jewish expression is somehow going soft in our taken-for-granted opposition to Jewish power.

That in itself is, to my mind, nonsense. But in any event, deLiberation is not bound to any particular opinion or ideology other than free, open and hopefully, meaningful thinking. 

So what&#039;s the problem?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I can well imagine appreciating a piece about the contradictions between the beauty of Germany and German-ness and the brutality of the NS regime. In fact, in those days when I was affected by the narrative of German barbarity, I was very struck by the close proximity of Dachau to the beautiful city of Munich.</p>
<p>So I&#8217;m really baffled by what Ariadna, Fool Me Once and, to some extent, Sarah find so alarming.</p>
<p>The landscape around Deir Yassin is truly breathtaking and Esti Rimmer uses that as a metaphor to convey her own feelings of living so close in space, time and spirit to a terrible atrocity.</p>
<p>I think the real reason people don&#8217;t like it is because Esti is Jewish and any attempt to engage with any Jewish expression is somehow going soft in our taken-for-granted opposition to Jewish power.</p>
<p>That in itself is, to my mind, nonsense. But in any event, deLiberation is not bound to any particular opinion or ideology other than free, open and hopefully, meaningful thinking. </p>
<p>So what&#8217;s the problem?</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Eisen</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11925</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Eisen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11925</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know the answer and any speculations I may have wouldn&#039;t be appropriate here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know the answer and any speculations I may have wouldn&#8217;t be appropriate here.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Gillespie</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11924</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Gillespie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 17:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11924</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@fool me once: I have no clue if Paul likes or dislikes being a Jew but he is uniquely conscious of the systems of knowledge that shaped him. Given this site deals primarily with issues surrounding the Middle East &amp; the global impacts of ethnic/tribal identities, his reflexivity is hugely relevant &amp; illuminating. Your comment implies that you imagine yourself to be impervious to whatever culture you were born into and/or rebelled against. Even anthropologists are encouraged to be mindful of their own particularities, including the conditions that gave rise to their compulsion to be an anthropologist. 

Like Ariadna I initially baulked at the tone of this piece. I can’t quite imagine (an acceptable) description of Bergen Belsen in the ‘spectacular sunset’, amid rolling fields of sauerkraut and a list of injuries to the ‘tortured’ German soul.  However, perhaps this is what we need.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@fool me once: I have no clue if Paul likes or dislikes being a Jew but he is uniquely conscious of the systems of knowledge that shaped him. Given this site deals primarily with issues surrounding the Middle East &amp; the global impacts of ethnic/tribal identities, his reflexivity is hugely relevant &amp; illuminating. Your comment implies that you imagine yourself to be impervious to whatever culture you were born into and/or rebelled against. Even anthropologists are encouraged to be mindful of their own particularities, including the conditions that gave rise to their compulsion to be an anthropologist. </p>
<p>Like Ariadna I initially baulked at the tone of this piece. I can’t quite imagine (an acceptable) description of Bergen Belsen in the ‘spectacular sunset’, amid rolling fields of sauerkraut and a list of injuries to the ‘tortured’ German soul.  However, perhaps this is what we need.</p>
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		<title>By: fool me once...</title>
		<link>http://www.deliberation.info/the-sun-always-sets-on-deir-yassin-bt-esti-rimmer/#comment-11922</link>
		<dc:creator>fool me once...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2012 15:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deliberation.info/?p=16876#comment-11922</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What I wrote wasn&#039;t meant to be an attack. It&#039;s just that other people on here who were jews decided enough was enough and took the brave step, grasped the nettle and rejected the jew ghetto gaol. Do you remember on the &quot;Transferring the &quot;Right of Return&quot; thread, that a number of the signers said they were ex-jews and that they signed with no quandary whether or not they were doing the right thing, except for Rich who after a short deliberation came round with, &quot;Anyway, I’m going to sign this thing. -RS&quot;.  
Jonathon said &quot;I am reminded of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory…&quot; meaning I think - the Golden ticket to Wonkaville if things go tits up. I ask again, what is it about the jew thing that is so special to you? You&#039;re contribution to the site just begs the question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I wrote wasn&#8217;t meant to be an attack. It&#8217;s just that other people on here who were jews decided enough was enough and took the brave step, grasped the nettle and rejected the jew ghetto gaol. Do you remember on the &#8220;Transferring the &#8220;Right of Return&#8221; thread, that a number of the signers said they were ex-jews and that they signed with no quandary whether or not they were doing the right thing, except for Rich who after a short deliberation came round with, &#8220;Anyway, I’m going to sign this thing. -RS&#8221;.<br />
Jonathon said &#8220;I am reminded of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate factory…&#8221; meaning I think &#8211; the Golden ticket to Wonkaville if things go tits up. I ask again, what is it about the jew thing that is so special to you? You&#8217;re contribution to the site just begs the question.</p>
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