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The new inquisitors and their slanderous campaigns

by Gilad Atzmon
Tuesday, April 10th, 2012

La Parabole d'Esther : Anatomie du Peuple Élu

Silvia Cattori Interviews Gilad Atzmon

La Parabole d’Esther : Anatomie du Peuple Élu to buy on Amazon.fr click here

Following the publication of the French edition of the “The Wandering Who ?” we asked jazz star Gilad Atzmon to respond to charges made against him by those who relentlessly try to stop him from speaking and disseminating his ideas. In his book, Gilad is critical of Jewish identity politics. He is also highly critical of Jewish political activity within the Left in general and the Palestinian solidarity movement in particular. Gilad’s arguments are impeccable – they appear faulty only to those who, lacking conscience incline to making slanderous accusations.  

Silvia Cattori: Your book has just been published in French (1). Without any promotion it is selling like hotcakes; in spite of the fact that six months before the French publication (2), members of U.J.F.P. (French Jewish Union for Peace) and I.J.A.N. (International Jewish Antizionist Network) launched a campaign to demonise you within the left and the Palestinian solidarity movement,. Did all these attacks come as a surprise to you? 

Gilad Atzmon: As you probably know I have been subject to these vile Jewish anti-Zionist campaigns for years. It is clear beyond doubt that I have managed to rock the boat. As it happens, I oppose any form of Jewish identity politics for being exclusive and racially oriented. Sadly enough, like Zionists, many of the Jewish anti Zionist political cells are openly engaged in similar tribal, racially-driven and exclusivist politics.

But there is also an ideological issue here. I openly contend that their entire terminology is misleading. Zionism is not colonialism, Israel is not Apartheid and the Israelis are not Zionists.

inquisition

The dreaded Spanish inquisition

Zionism is not colonialism because the Jewish ‘Settler State’ lacks a Jewish ‘Mother State’. Israel is not Apartheid because the Jewish (settler) State doesn’t want to exploit the Palestinians but to get rid of them. Israel is actually driven by Lebensraum (Living Space) philosophy. In other words, the Jewish State adopted Nazi racist, expansionist ideology.  But the Jews in our movement do not like the comparison with Nazi Germany.

Also, Israel is not exactly Zionism and Israelis are not necessarily Zionists. Israel is the product of the Zionist ideology and the Israeli is basically a post-revolutionary product. Hence, the Zionist/anti-Zionist debate has very little significance in Israel or on Israeli politics.

In short, our entire terminology is misleading if not deceitful. I guess that since I expose all of this it is only natural that some people would wish to kill the messenger.

Silvia Cattori: Many people accept that you are one of the most honest and sincere thinkers within the movement. Many respect you a lot, because you have the courage to speak your mind. And the fact members of UJFP in France, or IJAN in Switzerland, are able to mount pressure on those who publish your writing or invite you, does it not itself, merely affirm what you argue in your book?

Gilad Atzmon: These Jewish anti-Zionists cells are promoting a tribal and a marginal call; they are not very many but they are very noisy. There is a clear Judeo-centric interest in keeping Jewish dissident organisations alive because they manage to maintain Jewish hegemony within the Palestinian solidarity discourse and beyond. Tragically enough, as long as this is the case, there is no chance for this movement to become a mass movement. Their message is too esoteric. For instance, why should anyone join a Palestinian solidarity group if one of the main aims of the movement is ‘fighting anti-Semitism’? If people are really interested in solidarity discourse they must make sure that it becomes a universal movement driven by compassion and ethical concerns.

This may take you by surprise, I actually would like to see as many Jews as possible in this movement; but they should concern themselves with the real issues here i.e. the plight of the Palestinians and Jewish (political) power. I basically work on Jewish power and analyse Jewish identity and politics; this is my favorite subject. And it is quite astonishing that the first people who actually attack me and try to silence me are people who claim to be ‘Jewish Palestinian solidarity activists’. This fact alone gives the impression that they are not actually what they claim to be i.e. solidarity activists. They are just another form of the ADL (equivalent of the CRIF in France).

Now, I am happy to debate this issue. If they want to debate me, tfadal- come and confront me in London, NY or Paris…If I am wrong debate me, if I am incorrect please point out my mistakes. Did I get my facts wrong? Are my arguments flawed? Not really, no one has yet to point to a single mistake in my arguments or facts.

Instead they employ the old rabbinical tactics namely excommunication (herem). Why do they employ the Talmudic tactics? Probably because this is what they are: Talmudics. In spite of being the ‘people of the book’ they are engaged in an intensive horrific book burning. I believe that if they could nail me to the wood, they probably would.

Silvia Cattori: They claim (4) that your questioning of Judaism and Jewish anti-Zionism is fueled by “racism” because it attributes “to a whole group of people negative criteria in order to discredit them”. Are they not honest?

Gilad Atzmon: For sure they aren’t. I do not deal with Judaism. I don’t criticise Judaism, though I allow myself to refer critically to some Judaic interpretations. Yet, I am indeed extremely critical of Jewish politics and Jewish anti-Zionism in particular.

But the first questions to raise here are why should anyone stop oneself from questioning Judaism or Jewish politics or Jewish anti-Zionism. Is Judaism beyond criticism? Is Jewish politics inherently innocent?  Do Jewish anti-Zionists believe themselves to be perfect? It is clear that my detractors adhere to the most banal and disturbing view that Jews are, somehow, chosen, Judaism is unquestionable and Jewish politics must remain intact. I obviously do not accept this approach. Considering the negative impact of Jewish political lobbies and their push for another global war, criticising Jewish politics is the true meaning of peace loving.

I should also emphasize that concerns to do with ‘ethnicity’ or ‘race’ are foreign to my work. In my entire body of work, there is not a single reference to Jews as a ‘race’ or ‘ethnicity’. I am critical of Jewish ideology and Jewish culture. And I think that it is my right and my duty to criticise this culture and ideology; especially considering the fact IJAN, UJFP, ADL, The Zionist Federation or whatever, operate as Jews-only groups and their motivations are far from being universal or ethical.

Silvia Cattori: And what about the “classical anti Semitism”?

It depends how they define ‘classical anti-Semitism’. It is true that the nineteenth century brought about a school of thought highly critical of Jewish culture. We are familiar with the debate between Athens and Jerusalem. As far as I am concerned, this was, and still is, a very interesting and enlightening debate. If anything, this debate led generations of Jews towards reformation, humanism and tolerance.

However, we all agree that anti-Semitism became a very problematic, vile and murderous trend when it has adopted a biological determinist attitude. It basically became a Darwinist racist discourse. But shockingly enough, Jewish politics (left, right and centre) is soaked with such racist attitudes. Can you Silvia join one of those ‘progressive’ Jews-only groups? I don’t think so, and why not? Because you aren’t racially qualified.

Silvia Cattori: What about the systematic accusation of being a Holocaust denier?

Gilad Atzmon: Holocaust denial is obviously a Zionist notion. No one denies the Holocaust though some people debate some elements to do with its historicity. I myself do not engage in any historical debate for I am not a historian. However, I believe that history must be an open discourse. If anyone thinks that I am wrong here, he or she better produce a good argument. He or she will also have to explain what is wrong with Israeli Nakba law.

Silvia Cattori: When they claim that you “attack both anti-Zionist Jews and religious Jews in racist terms” do they lie?

Gilad Atzmon: For sure they lie. It is not true and a total misrepresentation of my writing and work. In my entire work you would not find any criticism of Judaism or Jews as people, race or ethnicity. I only refer to ideology. I am indeed very critical of all “Jews- only” political cells.

I examine some Jewish anti-Zionists and left Zionists or AZZ (Anti-Zionist Zionists) because they see their Jewishness as a primary political quality. Prominent Zionist Chaim Weizmann said that there are no French Jews or British Jews or American Jews. There are only Jews who live in France, Jews who live in America and Jews who live in Britain. This means that as far as Zionist ideology is concerned, Jewishness is a primary quality. Jewish anti-Zionists, or ‘Jews for peace’ clearly see their Jewishness as a primary quality. If it would not be a primary quality they would join the peace and solidarity movement as ordinary people.

Jewish ideologies are very different on many issues. But they all agree on a few fundamental issues: chosen-ness, exclusiveness and segregation. The one thing they all believe is that Jews are somehow special. Otherwise, If Jews are not special, why do they operate in “Jews only” cells?

Silvia Cattori: They accuse you of suggesting that “the Israeli colonialist oppression is not the product of Zionism but the outcome of Judaism”.  What do you say to that?

Gilad Atzmon: Again, a total misrepresentation. To start with, I do not talk about Judaism. Instead I discuss Jewish ideology. I may ask what are the Judaic traces within a contemporary Jewish ideology?. I would ask, for instance, how the Book of Deuteronomy filters into the Zionist thought. I would ask what is the meaning of The Book of Esther? But I also argue that it is not ‘Zionism’ that inflicts pain on the Palestinian people but the Jewish State; and it does it in the name of the Jewish people. If Israel defines itself as the Jewish State and its tanks are decorated with Jewish symbols, we must be able to ask who are the Jews? What is Judaism and what is Jewishness?  In my work, I differentiate between Zionism and Israeli discourse. I argue that Israel it is not driven by Zionism; and Zionism is, in particular, a Jewish Diaspora discourse that become more and more irrelevant to the oppression of the Palestinian people.

Silvia Cattori: Recently, you have also been criticized in a letter apparently written by Ali Abunimah and signed by a number of Palestinian activists. This has provoked many comments and articles in your favor (4). It only affirms publicly your argument regarding the negative impact of tribal politics within our movement.

Gilad Atzmon: This is indeed very sad, especially considering Ali Abunimah and others on this list being amongst the proponents of the One Democratic State. One would expect the advocates of One Democratic State to grasp the true meaning of tolerance and pluralism

Silvia Cattori: Vos détracteurs au sein de l’UJFP et de l’l’IJAN ont sauté sur l’occasion. In Switzerland the Israelis; Gabriel Ash based in Geneva or Caroline Finkelstein for example, who are part of the “Comité Urgence Palestine” and IJAN in signeda statement against you showing which side they are on (5) and launched a campaign against you (6). In doing that, are they not working against one of the very rare brilliant ex- Israeli intellectuals “more qualified than they are and who is at least honest and not feeding on the miseries of others or monopolizing a righteous cause in order to keep a job or acquire a position or get a promotion, some one who could shed the light on the real cause of the Palestinian plight” (7)

Gilad Atzmon: This is hardly surprising and it is totally consistent with everything I say in The Wandering Who. Some of the Jews within our movement are serving Jewish tribal interests. It is only natural that people who identify politically as Jews would also act out of Jewish self interest. Philip Wiess, American pro-Palestinian activist admitted to me in an interview that as a Jew he operates out of Jewish self interest.

Silvia Cattori: In the name of the fight against “anti-Semitism” they are denouncing your discourse, apparently trying to stop your activity and not let people read your book. One of the priorities of the Swiss BDS Movement now is to expose Gilad Atzmon anti-Semitism (8).

Gilad Atzmon: For more than a while, myself and others are very suspicious of the BDS. For some peculiar reason the BDS in the West is dominated by Jewish activists. Though the BDS’ principle is valid and worth a fight, it has become clear to many of us that something went wrong along the way. Last month we have seen BDS call to stop Norman Finkelstein; this month we see BDS call to stop me. Great, isn’t it? The BDS is now used to stifle freedom within the solidarity discourse.

Interestingly enough, already in 2006 I predicted that any attempt to interfere with freedom of speech may turn the BDS into a banal witch hunt facilitator. But recently I have seen some very worrying signs. We learned for instance that in spite of the global financial crisis that hit Britain very hard, British trade with Israel increased by no less than 34%. So on the one hand we have BDS activists engaged in a successful weekly vigil against an Israeli beauty product shop, they even manage to destroy a few concerts but at the same time Israel is shipping tons of goods into this country. What is going on here?

Silvia Cattori: Would it be correct to suggest that your deep desire is to alert the Goyim. To advise to them stop being driven by guilt, being humiliated and submissive?

Gilad Atzmon: In my world there is no division between Jews and Goyim. My big desire is to say what I want to say. I believe that my message is pretty crucial for people, who are interested in peace, be it Jews or Goyim. It is clear to me that with Israel and Jewish lobbies pushing for more and more wars, Israel and its lobbies set themselves up as the biggest threat to world peace. It is also clear to me that Jewish communities fail to restrain Israel and its lobbies. And the message for all of us is clear. It is down to us to save our planet. This planet is our home and we are sitting on a ticking bomb. We’d better hurry up, we’d better speak out before it is too late.

http://www.silviacattori.net/

——-

(1)   « La Parabole d’Esther. Anatomie du Peuple Élu. – Réflexions sur la politique identitaire juive », Editions Demi Lune

http://www.editionsdemilune.com/la-parabole-desther-anatomie-du-peuple-elu-p-42.html

2)  Voir : « L’UJFP et l’IJAN écrivent à Info-Palestine suite à la publication d’une interview de Gilad Atzmon ».
http://paris.indymedia.org/spip.php ?article8850
ainsi qu’une deuxième lettre de Pierre Stambul au nom du bureau national de l’UJPF :
http://la-feuille-de-chou.fr/archives/27698

- Voir : « Gilad Atzmon répond à ses détracteurs », 25 octobre 2011.
(http://www.info-palestine.net/article.php3 ?id_article=11349)

(3) Voir sous note (2) la lettre de l’IJAN et de l’UJFP

(4) Voir :

- « L’appel d’Ali Abunimah a profondément choqué », par Roger Tucker, 24 mars 2012.
http://www.silviacattori.net/article3030.html
À la fin de l’article de Roger Tucker on trouvera également les liens des articles de nombreux auteurs ayant pris la défense de Gilad Atzmon contre les attaques dont il est l’objet.

 (5) http://www.ujfp.org/spip.php?article2235&lang=fr

(6) Caroline Finkelstein, membre de l’IJAN, dissuade le Comité urgence palestine (CUP-Vaud) le 9 février 2012 de donner la parole à Atzmon en ces termes : « Nous ne sommes pas officiellement membre du CUP-Lausanne mais nous aimons bien collaborer avec vous tous. Nous aimerions attirer votre attention sur la polémique qui existe en ce qui concerne Gilad Atzmon. Nous nous permettons de vous conseiller de bien vous renseigner sur le personnage avant de le faire venir. IJAN (International Jewish Anti-zionist Network – Réseau international juif antisioniste, dont nous sommes membres) et UJFP (Union Juive Française pour la Paix) rejettent les arguments de Gilad Atzmon. Nous personnellement n’assisterions  à aucune conférence avec Atzmon ».

(7) Voir :

- « La campagne lancée par Ali Abunimah contre Gilad Atzmon est injustifiable et inacceptable », par Daniel Mabsout, 26 mars 2012.

http://www.silviacattori.net/article3052.html

(8) Lors d’une récente réunion du BDS – Suisse,  la lutte contre le prétendu « antisémitisme de Gilad Atzmon » a été mentionnée en ces termes comme un des trois principes déterminant l’action au sein du mouvement. « Nous devons veiller à ne pas nous associer avec des personnes qui ont un discours flou par rapport à l’antisémitisme. En l’occurrence Gilad Atzmon ». Il a été décidé d’organiser une formation sur cette question. Ceci qui revient à éloigner les militants de l’objectif initial du BDS: au lieu de parler de l’idéologie sioniste, de sa politique en Israël et de ses complicités en Europe et aux États-Unis, ils se préoccupent de censurer des militants à l’intérieur du mouvement. Militants laissés dans l’ignorance des vrais enjeux car formés et formatés surtout par des conférenciers israéliens (Michel

Warschawsky ou maintenant Shir Haver (qui demande 200.- euros par conférence et la prise en charge de tous les frais).

(7) Voir :

- « La campagne lancée par Ali Abunimah contre Gilad Atzmon est injustifiable et inacceptable », par Daniel Mabsout, 26 mars 2012.

http://www.silviacattori.net/article3052.html

(8) Lors d’une récente réunion du BDS – Suisse,  la lutte contre le prétendu « antisémitisme de Gilad Atzmon » a été mentionnée en ces termes comme un des trois principes déterminant l’action au sein du mouvement. « Nous devons veiller à ne pas nous associer avec des personnes qui ont un discours flou par rapport à l’antisémitisme. En l’occurrence Gilad Atzmon ». Il a été décidé d’organiser une formation sur cette question. Ceci qui revient à éloigner les militants de l’objectif initial du BDS: au lieu de parler de l’idéologie sioniste, de sa politique en Israël et de ses complicités en Europe et aux États-Unis, ils se préoccupent de censurer des militants à l’intérieur du mouvement. Militants laissés dans l’ignorance des vrais enjeux car formés et formatés surtout par des conférenciers israéliens (Michel

Warschawsky ou maintenant Shir Haver (qui demande 200.- euros par conférence et la prise en charge de tous les frais).

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68 Responses to The new inquisitors and their slanderous campaigns

  1. Cosmo

    April 10, 2012 at 9:56 am

    Gilad Atzmon on Wagner: “He once wrote that Jews were only capable of producing money-making music and not works of art. I guess that Israelis do not like meshiges with an astute reading of the socio-economy of the show business.”

    Jews can’t produce works of art all, even when making art all they care about is making money. That is what Mr Gilad Atzmon calls an astute reading of the socio-economy of the show business.
    If that is not classic anti-semitism I don’t know what is.

    • Roy Bard

      April 10, 2012 at 10:13 am

      Do you therefore conclude that Gilad Atzmon considers himself incapable of producing art?

      • Cosmo

        April 10, 2012 at 12:06 pm

        You will have to address that question to Mr Atzmon not to me. Throughout history the worst anti Semitic people were fomer Jews who converted. Atzmon in the exact same way claims he is no longer a Jew. He doesn’t see himself as part of that group any more so maybe he believes he can produce works or art. To me Gilad Atzmon’s music if I can borrow a phrase from the simpsons, by an audience member in a Jazz concert. Sounds like he’s (she’s) hitting a baby with a cat. But I can’t stand Jazz in general it is nothing against Gilad’s music personally.
        I don’t really think Gilad Atzmon believe in what he wrote but when you are spreading hate even if you don’t believe in everything you write you are still spreading hate.
        When Gilad suggested there might be truth that the IDF built a field hospital in Haiti to steal organs I don’t think he really believed that either but he thought maybe some of my followers are dumber than I am and would.

        • Gilad Atzmon

          April 10, 2012 at 1:06 pm

          Cosmo, when you say anti semites, surely all you mean is people who criticise J identity and J power. Why can’t you use an appropriate language?

          Also why do you think that telling the truth is spreading hate?

          Re IDF’s hospitals in Haiti, as far as i can remember I only reported the story. However, by now, IDF admitted organ trafficking and it is only natural for people out there to look for a business motivation behind every Israeli action.

          • searching

            April 10, 2012 at 1:29 pm

            Interesting question, worth pondering.
            “why do you think that telling the truth is spreading hate?
            Maybe because that those in Power , those who are doing evil deeds , like to hide them,keep them in the dark. They want to control, manipulate, deceive the rest of the crowd. Once the evil is out, in the broad daylight ,for everybody to see, it doesn’t like it. The evil breeds, grows in the darkness, it withers under a light. His ugly face is being seen for what is worth it.
            So when the truth is being exposed, the evil screams of spreading hate.
            Because the Truth rocks the boat, rocks the status quo that was under full control of evil. And people start opening their eyes and see that they were decived,lied to, maniulated, cheated.
            And they get angry, and start to wonder, question … The evil hates it, and calls it “spreading the hate”. Because the evil knows that kind of massive awarness, awaking, means that evil is losing its control, its power and influance.
            So evil screeches: “they are spreading hate” ,while all they want is a simple, true Truth.

          • Cosmo

            April 10, 2012 at 2:11 pm

            The fact that you just reported the story and did write you believe it is what made me assume you do not believe it is true.
            Lets say there is a paper in Israel puts on it’s front page headline. Knesset member X claims a forest fire was arson by Israeli Arabs. The next day it quotes some other person blaming Arabs for rise in cancer and so on. Would you consider that paper spreading hate? They do not claim Arabs are really behind all those things they just found the one person out of million that does and reported that is what he believes. Will there be more people believing that Arabs started the fire on purpose than did before that paper made it headline?
            Of course I don’t think all of what you say is the truth but you can spread hate by telling the truth as well.
            To use the same example as before, lets say one day the front page headline of that paper is about an actual rape of a Jewish girl done by an Israeli Arabs. That day there were 2 stories of other rapes done by Jews but they weren’t reported. The following day there is a report about a person being attacked by an Arab in bar fight and so on for weeks. Arab on Jew crimes get headlines, other crimes are ignored or pushed to the back pages.
            That paper is telling the truth all those stories did happen. they are “telling the truth” in all of them. Are they not spreading hate?

          • who_me

            April 10, 2012 at 3:44 pm

            i remember as soon as i heard israel was going to send a team of medical personnel to haiti, the first thing that came into my mind is that they were going there to harvest human organs and that the humanitarian work was just a front to cover for this.

        • Roy Bard

          April 10, 2012 at 1:17 pm

          ” Throughout history the worst anti Semitic people were fomer Jews who converted.”

          An interesting idea – why do you think that is?

          “Atzmon in the exact same way claims he is no longer a Jew. He doesn’t see himself as part of that group any more so maybe he believes he can produce works or art. ”

          So, that would suggest that it isn’t a racial phenomena then, no?

          “I don’t really think Gilad Atzmon believe in what he wrote but when you are spreading hate even if you don’t believe in everything you write you are still spreading hate.”

          I find this suggestion quite absurd …… what exactly is in it for Gilad?

          “When Gilad suggested there might be truth that the IDF built a field hospital in Haiti to steal organs I don’t think he really believed that either but he thought maybe some of my followers are dumber than I am and would.”

          Why not link to the articles you’re referring to? Then we can see for ourselves that Gilad wrote:

          Does the IDF steal organs in Haiti? Probably not, However one thing is clear. The Israelis have bought themselves some reputation…

        • Jay Knott

          April 10, 2012 at 1:45 pm

          The reason for suspicion about Israeli intent to steal organs in Haiti is their record of doing the same in Palestine. Nancy Scheper-Hughes at UC Berkeley wrote about it, identifying Israel as the world leader in illegal organ trafficking. Alison Weir publicized it, and it was described as ‘classic anti-Semitism’ by the Jewish establishment. Berkeley deleted some web pages, ensuring that the ones which mention Israel do so at the end of a list of other countries, because it’s ‘anti-Semitic’ to single out Israel.

          At this point, most Palestine solidarity types would say it’s NOT ‘anti-Semitism’ to simply describe what Israel does. Why bother? After all, talk of removing organs from unknowing participants and selling them DOES sound a bit like a modern version of an old Tsarist calumny. So what?

        • ariadna

          April 10, 2012 at 2:27 pm

          “Throughout history the worst anti Semitic people were fomer Jews who converted. Atzmon in the exact same way claims he is no longer a Jew.”

          This is SO funny it made me burst out laughing when I read it.
          Oy, what a dilemma! To choose between eternal victimology and total supremacy! Why give up either in ANY category, why not somehow squeeze both in?
          If you choose the former you are saying anti-semitism is specific and innate to the Goyim. What, no leadership for the Jews?!!
          No, let’s still put the Jews on top (“the worst”) but make them denatured Jews. Yeah, that’s it, perfect.

        • ariadna

          April 10, 2012 at 2:33 pm

          “To me Gilad Atzmon’s music if I can borrow a phrase from the simpsons, by an audience member in a Jazz concert. Sounds like he’s (she’s) hitting a baby with a cat. But I can’t stand Jazz in general it is nothing against Gilad’s music personally.”

          Your opinions about his writings are similarly well grounded and informed and offered with the same self-assurance.

        • pgg804

          April 11, 2012 at 1:08 pm

          According to everything I have read, I don’t think there is a nation or people that at one time or another was in the wrong at least on one occasion (with one exception). I have never heard of an occasion where Jews have been in the wrong regarding anything (at least according to the mainstream media). That’s a remarkable record extending thousands of years. But I don’t think any real scholars would agree with it.

    • Gilad Atzmon

      April 10, 2012 at 1:00 pm

      So Cosmo-(politan) tell us, do you know what Meshegine means? Do you know anything about the demography of the show business? Do you want me to provide you with some academic texts about the prominent role of Jews in entertainment industry? Do you know what was Lord Levy’s main occupation before he funded war criminal Tony Blair? What do you know about the person who leads AIPAC these days..

      And ,most important, how do you define “classical antisemitsm?

      • searching

        April 10, 2012 at 1:48 pm

        I would like to know the answers to all those questions.
        If I may:)

        • Gilad Atzmon

          April 10, 2012 at 9:56 pm

          Read The Wandering Who? :)

          • searching

            April 10, 2012 at 10:13 pm

            I will, I promise :) , after I digest “the Black Swan” by Nassim Taleb.
            It will take a while, since it is quite a demanding read.
            I love to make excuses :)

      • Cosmo

        April 10, 2012 at 1:49 pm

        Meshegine is one of the few Yiddish words I do know the meaning of. You don’t have to be an expert in the demography of the show business to know that claiming a certain race or faith is incapable of creating works of art is wrong and inappropriate. I don’t see how bombarding me with questions benefits the debate other than try shifting it to different subject in order to avoid addressing the actual quote from your website.
        Lets say you are right on all accounts and I know nothing about anything (besides the meaning of the word Meshegine). Now that we established that, please explain how is what you said not considered racist. If we asked 100 people in America or Britain, how many of them do you think would share your view and would not consider it anti Semitic?

        • searching

          April 10, 2012 at 1:53 pm

          if you ask 100 commomn, random folks in America or Britan where lies Iran or what’s the capital of Sweden, I bet most of them is not going to know. And they don’t even care.

        • Gilad Atzmon

          April 10, 2012 at 2:21 pm

          you say ‘faith’ and ‘race’ as if you turn blind eye to the fact that the J predicate refers also to ‘identity’, politics’ ‘nationalism’, ‘ideology’ and ‘culture’…anti semites then, are those who refer to Jews as race or ethnicity, and as far as i can see, only Jews refer to themselves as such. the rest of us criticise J politics, identity and culture.
          When you blame us/me for being antisemitic, you basically project your own (racist) symptoms. This is not a big surprise, the J identity politics discourse as well as left discourse are inherently racist (what the leftist mean by criticising the White man?)

          in this site, we allow ourselves to ctiticise culture, identity and politics. we wouldn’t allow any racist comment!!! except of course people like yourself exhibiting their own racially driven world view..

          • Cosmo

            April 10, 2012 at 2:31 pm

            I agree with you that there is alot of inherent racism in the Left. We can see it mostly with how much lower their standards and demands are when it comes to Arabs. They will never expect Syrian Lebanese or Palestinian armed forces to respect human rights and international law in the same way they would of “civilized” Israelis. Like treating a child or a pet they would always look for the blame of “adult” Europeans regardless what wrongs were done by Arabs.

            • who_me

              April 10, 2012 at 3:54 pm

              so cosmo, how is your fashion mag doing now that people spend more time on the internet? i wasn’t aware cosmo had an israeli branch, but i guess they would, since fashion is one of those parasitical and exploitative industries which produce little of real value and israel specialises in that sort of business.

            • Jay Knott

              April 11, 2012 at 1:30 am

              What Cosmo refers to isn’t exactly ‘racism’, but there are double standards on the left. There used to be student union buildings in Britain named after Winnie Mandela. Whoops!

              The basis of this is the idea of supporting ‘the oppressed’ against ‘the oppressors’. This means, for example, putting more effort into opposing bad stuff done by Western-backed countries. For example, apartheid South Africa or Israel, not Syria or Sudan.

              In the USA, the main double standard in the left is not how it is more critical of Israel than Syria – that would be logical – but how it is less critical of Jewish than of white supremacy, despite the ontological advantage the former has over the latter. How the allegation of ‘anti-Semitism’ is so effective at undermining Palestine solidarity.

      • Eldon

        April 10, 2012 at 10:14 pm

        Is the problem that Haim Saban made it big and you did not…………….

        • who_me

          April 11, 2012 at 7:39 am

          “Is the problem that Haim Saban made it big and you did not…………….”

          that is actually a typical israeli hasbara troll response in discussions where corrupt israeli or jewish individuals are being exposed. these trolls identify with the corruption and apparently worship it. one gets the impression that these people who spam this line have no sense of moral values at all.

  2. Laura Stuart

    April 10, 2012 at 10:33 am

    Art can be produced for different reasons, it would depend on the intention which could be making money or even to give a political message such as “The War On Trevor” which is not for profit.

    Artists used to die inpoverished didn’t they?

    • Gilad Atzmon

      April 10, 2012 at 1:14 pm

      Laura, i do not have any problem with Artist making a living. My role as Sarah’s musical producer is transforming her beauty into a commodity. The question that we have to ask is whether beauty is a concern at all?

      This is the problem, Wagner, in a way, predicted the rise of the cultural industry. He was obviously applying wrong categories (race for instance). Yet revisiting his arguments is crucial for Jews in particular. I learned a lot about my own art via Wagner. My music is based on quotes of different references, I guess that for Wagner, i would be the ultimate Jewish artist.

      Interestingly enough, for Otto Weininger, Wagner is actually the ultimate Jew. It is all pretty interesting.

      • Jay Knott

        April 11, 2012 at 1:33 am

        “Transforming her beauty into a commodity”. See – Jews in the record industry – just like the ones in Hollywood!

  3. searching

    April 10, 2012 at 2:08 pm

    great sentence by Gilad:
    “As it happens, I oppose any form of Jewish identity politics for being exclusive and racially oriented”.
    It reminds me of a cage, of somebody who was once locked in a cage, got out of it ,and realised that he was indeed in the cage ,and it was in a way suffocating him, forcing him to follow the rest of anesthetized crowd locked in the cage.
    He managed to escape, got out and felt the breath of fresh air, freedom to think and act.
    And because he dared , had guts to do it, he is/was considered ” an anti-semitic”, ” a traitor” etc. by those ,who either are still sitting willingly in a fully controlled cage, or by those who think that this cage has a full right to exists and be supported because there maybe some future use for it.

    • Gilad Atzmon

      April 10, 2012 at 2:22 pm

      the cage or the cave is what we call symbolic order. Cosmo is locked in but his exchange with us may liberate him and others..

      • searching

        April 10, 2012 at 2:44 pm

        I hope so :) ,although I think he is afraid even of the idea of being liberated.
        Some people loooove the cage.
        It gives them a cozy feeling of security and tribal warmth and understanding.
        Not too many people have the courage to venture alone outside the cave.
        Especially, if they were told that a anti-Semite Boogey Man is out there , ready to devour them anytime. Fear of a common enemy unites people a great deal and makes them put up with a lot.
        That’s why many people appreciate your efforts, guts and honesty Gilad.
        I am not saying it just to be nice and sweet.
        I realise that what you’ve done ,(and doing)is indeed a great endeavour. You have my highest admiration and respect.

  4. Laura Stuart

    April 10, 2012 at 4:50 pm

    Sorry it won’t allow me to reply direct

    searching

    April 10, 2012 at 4:44 pm

    wait, wait. Why Gilad got only 9 compare to Russian singers who got 10. ?.
    If high testerone equals courage and bravery, then Gilad is definately on the very top.
    I think I scored a point with Gilad for saying that:), or maybe not:(

    Gilad lost a point because he is manly without a beard and a skirt, to be manly whilst wearing a dress or a skirt requires more testosterone!

    • searching

      April 10, 2012 at 4:59 pm

      if being manly , without wearing a beard and a skirt/dress is enough, why bother.?.
      After all it is only a choice of clothes and a hair/beard style. And we know that “clothes don’t make a man”. Clothes are often a mater of choice, comfort, fashion, religious requirements. The same goes for a beard.
      Personally ,I don’t care for a beard, although on those Russian singers it does look very handsome.

    • who_me

      April 10, 2012 at 9:52 pm

      this russian folk singer doesn’t have a beard, though is wearing a skirt:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lToSjnJWQNM

      i wouldn’t call this a macho performance, considering what the tune is about. perhaps fem-cho? ;D

  5. Laura Stuart

    April 10, 2012 at 5:06 pm

    Well it’s a song contest – we haven’t heard Gilad sing

  6. Loren Franklin

    April 10, 2012 at 5:14 pm

    “In my world there is no division between Jews and Goyim. My big desire is to say what I want to say. I believe that my message is pretty crucial for people, who are interested in peace, be it Jews or Goyim.”

    Exactly, Gilad — there is no difference. It seems that the biggest part of the battle can be bringing people together in the realization that we are one people, sharing one earth. Making life better for one’s neighbor, makes life better for all of us. Destroying our neighbors degrades us all, and drags humanity down to a base existence.

    • searching

      April 10, 2012 at 5:38 pm

      Agreed. I think a majority of average people on earth want peace and liberty.
      They want to work , raise their families, enjoy simple pleasures, and do other , daily activities in peace. I call them Good-Willed people, people who have Good Intentions in their hearts.
      But there are also evil-spirited people, people with Bad Intentions in their hearts, who desire power, control, money, domination.
      They are a minority, but they are a very strong,powerful, well financed and organized,very determined group. They know how to control, use and manipulate the rest, the so called Good- Willed people, who unfortunately are ,oftentimes, also very ignorant, indifferent ,and hope that things somehow,sometime will resolve themselves by themselves.

      • Gilad Atzmon

        April 11, 2012 at 9:39 am

        Again, since 3rd category Js are defined (ideologicaly) by negation, they strive by continuous conflict… This is why the Jewish State cannot find peace. This is why the J anti Zionist (as opposed to the anti Zionist who happen to be Jewish) is craving domination of a liberation discourse of other people.

    • Jonathon Blakeley

      April 10, 2012 at 9:54 pm

      It’s one world, we just got hope we can save it before its too late, and we have got to save ourselves no one is going to do it for us.

      At the end of the day we are all Human Beings on One planet, we should all try to work together affirm our similarities that unite us rather than the tribal variations that divide us.

      • searching

        April 10, 2012 at 10:38 pm

        Jonathon, you are more of an idealist,
        I think I am more of those pesky realists a.k.a wet blankiets.
        I can’t shake off this internal, gut feeling that there will be a major confrontation ahead of us.
        I would Loove to be mistaken.
        In the meantime ,a great song with great words for you to ponder.
        My favourite Hungarian band, Karpatia ,( Iam not Hungarian though: although I do admire this nation, especially their current leader Victor Orban)
        “Life is only as a day
        one day, nothing more
        but for this day, my dear friends
        it was worth to be born.
        The bones on our muscles still twitch/move
        although this land drank our blood,
        and then you see the brightness far away
        wrapped in a light mist,
        Instead of drums you hear the trumpets
        and gates of heaven open,
        There our army is marching
        it is going back through the Milky Way,
        Because no matter where you are coming from
        it is important where you’re going
        With the flag carried high by a strong fist,
        Life is only like a day
        one day, nothing more
        but for this day, my dear friends
        it was worth to be born…
        thousand and thousand years father practiced with his sons
        how to welcome the heroic death with dignity
        thousand and thousand years mother and daughters
        learnt how to weave black mourning in their hearts”.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5huCSODejsM

        • Jonathon Blakeley

          April 10, 2012 at 11:11 pm

          I attempt to realise ideals, it doesn’t always work, but it’s worth the effort. I don’t believe in perfection, I believe in an imperfect Perfection.

          • searching

            April 10, 2012 at 11:23 pm

            You are correct. We should strive to realise our ideals, even knowing that they can not be fully obtained, but the effort itself makes us already better people.
            We can’t achieve perfection, but we can choose to go in this direction, as close as possible, in spite of everything.
            And here is almost perfect song.
            Just for you :)
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrssTGF21l8

    • Gilad Atzmon

      April 11, 2012 at 9:35 am

      Sadly enough, From a 3rd category J perspective there is a big difference between Js and Goyim.. this is why we re launch the Jewish question.. this is why I face such a resilient Jewish opposition..

  7. searching

    April 10, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    The very essence of the evil is beyond my comprehension. I know it does exists and thrives ,but I can not understand how someone could get any satisfaction /pleasure from annihilation/destruction/humiliation of another human being.
    Life is so much easier ,for all of us, when we respect and care for each other.
    Good,kind words, nice gestures,friendly smiles:), helping hand does not cost anything, but makes life so much easier.
    “Carry each other burden”.
    Children know it, we all could learn from their innocence,trust, beautiful imagination,happy energy and zest for life.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubeVUnGQOIk

    • Paul Eisen

      April 11, 2012 at 12:18 pm

      I take a different view. We all have vicious, vengeful feelings inside. Of course, we also have generous, loving feelings as well.

      I think this goes for everyone and the thing is how you deal with it all.

      • searching

        April 11, 2012 at 5:38 pm

        You are correct. There is good and evil inside of us. Constant battle.
        Which one wins??
        The one that we feed more , as the old story ,said by a naitive Indian grandfather goes.
        I hope you know this beautiful and wise short story. If not, I will tell you:)
        Just say so:)

    • Gilad Atzmon

      April 11, 2012 at 3:16 pm

      Searching: “but I can not understand how someone could get any satisfaction /pleasure from annihilation/destruction/humiliation of another human being.”

      I know what you mean but then check out this guy he is after poetic satisfaction..

      http://www.deliberation.info/the-devil-sings-again/

  8. fool me once...

    April 10, 2012 at 7:35 pm

    I think this track captures where it’s at.
    Forget the hippy dippy peace bullshit spouted by the privileged. Check the lyrics.
    “Equal Rights” – Peter Tosh
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SN7Pko_jCM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL7B7D5738F8A06989

    • searching

      April 10, 2012 at 7:50 pm

      I see that you like reggee music:)
      Here is a very interesting combination of a Polish folk group, (highlanders) and a Jamaican reggee band.
      Great song. worth checking. Beautiful,simple words.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wMZYD6D8io

  9. who_me

    April 10, 2012 at 10:05 pm

    tosh and marley, the good ole days. thanks. here is an old favourite:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Fr6khzOskI

    and a new one that caught my ear:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byoWMpHvtjE

  10. solar

    April 11, 2012 at 11:38 pm

    ‘Holocaust denial is obviously a Zionist notion.’

    That may be the single dumbest sentence I’ve read this year.

    • who_me

      April 12, 2012 at 1:44 am

      “That may be the single dumbest sentence I’ve read this year.”

      why do israeli gays write in cheesy cliches?

      • solar

        April 12, 2012 at 2:14 pm

        Ah, thanks for reminding me that homophobia joins anti-Semitism among this site’s accepted bigotries.

        • ariadna

          April 12, 2012 at 3:33 pm

          “accepted bigotries”?
          There is no Komintern on this site. From time to time, when tempers flare, there is a civilized–one would say even kind–rebuke to posters.
          If there were a list of “accepted bigotries” you would have been banned because yours would not be on the list. You are probably used to such sites and approve of them if their list suits you.

          Making fun of some stereotypical homosexual mannerisms (which do not harm anyone) is not an indication of homophobia. Some people hold strong religious convictions against homosexuality and they, too, are allowed to express them.
          You obviously hold strong convictions that any criticism of Jewish tribal behavior (some of whose manifestations are pernicious to many people, including the members of the Tribe) is proof of anti-semitism. And you are allowed to express them here too.
          So drop this refrain.

          • searching

            April 12, 2012 at 3:43 pm

            But……He loves the refrain.
            It makes his day, it makes him want to live:)

          • solar

            April 13, 2012 at 12:35 am

            “accepted bigotries?”

            Yes, accepted bigotries. As has been demonstrated again and again, posters here can engage in the foulest anti-Semitic tropes, the
            rankest Holocaust denial, clear as a bell and bright as day, and the editors yawn and turn away, and you will step up with your usual faux-Freud gallon of bullshit.

            You are all so keen on insisting that this is a place “without Komintern” – and instead it is a place where deep anti-Jewish rhetoric of all the classic forms and varieties is plainly flourishing – while people like Ariadna fail to do anything about it.

  11. ariadna

    April 13, 2012 at 2:57 am

    “people like Ariadna fail to do anything about it”

    You are wrong about me. You misread me, which is a compliment.
    I can come out now because my work is done: I am an agent provocateur (shouldn’t it be une agent provocatrice? I’ll ask aemathisphd, he can find it on wikkipedia).
    I was just trying to draw them out all the time so I can gather enough quotes.
    I took down names and documented everything. I made a spreadsheet that you can search by poster, by types of tropes used, number of tropes per poster, per post, the works.
    Foulness was harder to quantify but let’s agree they are all foul.My weekly reports have been received well by the Hasbaraabteilung Bureau but you would have no way of knowing, of course, they are not circulated in the lower echelons. Rest easy: they continue to be in my crosshairs.

    • Jay Knott

      April 13, 2012 at 3:42 am

      ‘Provocatrice’ sounds sexy. To me. Maybe not to Solar.

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