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The Devil Sings Again
by Gilad Atzmon
Wednesday, April 11th, 2012
Itamar Yaoz-Kest
Israel National News published today a poem by Itamar Yaoz-Kest, a Holocaust survivor. The poem is presented as “letter-poem in reply to German Günter Grass’ attack.” The poem is a clear reminder of horrific danger that is embedded within Jewish identity politics and contemporary Jewish nationalism. It is a glimpse into unique psychotic genocidal sense of retribution.
The “letter-poem” starts as follows:
Danger,
I want to be a danger,
I want to be a danger to the world,
so that after my destruction, not a single blade of grass will remain on the face of the Earth,
or a single blade of grass for Gunther Grass’s pipe,
upon the Earth where, since I was born, I pose a danger to the world.
Because it is my right!
It is my right to live or die while annihilating my annihilators, without riding again as a crying-boy in a transport train,
Into the world-vacuum, while placing my head in the lap of a mother who is disappearing into the fresh air of the Land of Wotan,
and the urine tin darts dark-yellow specks onto the walls of the cabin – like gunshots that spray
a yellowish-reddish liquid from besides the train guards, and among them – maybe – the soldier G.G., also, wearing a steel helmet.
Later in the poem, Yaoz-Kest issues what appears to be a statement of intent along the lines of “the Samson Option”:
“For it is the right of the Nation of Israel to finally shut the gates to the world after it leaves this place (not of its free will!), and we have the right to say, at the price of the 3,000 year old fear: “If you force us yet again to descend from the face of the Earth to the depths of the Earth – let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness.”
The Samson Option – taking out Israel’s enemies with it, possibly causing irreparable damage to the entire world – has been a phantasmic Israeli strategy since the early 1950’s.
The message for the rest of us is clear- Israel is the biggest threat to world peace. Time is overdue to discharge the Jewish State of its destructive power.
Posted by Gilad Atzmon
on April 11, 2012. Filed under Israel.
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156 Responses to The Devil Sings Again
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Chester
April 11, 2012 at 2:37 pm
This kind of nationalist paranoia and the desire to bring down the rest of the world rather than face reality and listen to friendly advice does, of course, have a historical parallel.
Germany and Germans are still living with the consequences. I would not wish the same on Israelis.
Irony piled upon irony.
Jay Knott
April 11, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Chester – whose ‘nationalist paranoia’ are Germans today living with? None of the powers in WWII wanted to ‘bring down the rest of the world’, but ‘listening to friendly advice’ would have been good for any of them. For example, the British government could have listened to the friendly advice that it had no intrinsic quarrel with Germany. Is that a good example?
Jonathon Blakeley
April 11, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Well said, the German nation has been made a scapegoat for too long and it never threatened the entire World.
Chester
April 11, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Jay, the historical parallel I was alluding to was Nazi Germany’s bid for world domination, which was nourished by nationalist paranoia (if we don’t strike first, our enemies will strangle us).
There were plenty of people sympathetic to Hitler who told him that aggression was a bad idea. And others who would have told him if he had been capable of listening.
Israel’s leadership seems to have a similar mentality and/or deafness to criticism.
Germans are still living with the consequences of the Nazis, of course they are. But I don’t think there is any great nationalist paranoia here. Certainly less than in Britain where a sizeable chunk of the general public thinks the EU is all an anti-British plot, or in America where a large section of the public thinks there is a muslim terrorist lurking on every corner.
Israel by contrast probably could not even exist if it were not held together by a collective fear of outsiders.
Jay Knott
April 11, 2012 at 11:16 pm
“Nazi Germany’s bid for world domination”. I thought that’s what you meant, Chester. I’d recommend Pat Buchanan’s “The Unnecessary War” for a good counter-argument. He’s right-wing, but the Jews who accused him of sympathy with the Nazis were lying. He just produces piles of evidence of how Germany tried to avoid, and then end, war with Britain. No space here, but I believe deconstructing what we’re told about WWII is an essential part of the critique of Zionism. And of course, Zios and the left say that this is ‘fascist’.
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 2:23 pm
I read Buchanan’s book too. Its fascinating not so much for groundbreaking findings. Its fascinating because it tells the story as it happened and how simple the truth is. But the truth has been covered up by making it politically incorrect to speak the truth since the end of the war.
The historian David Irving goes into great detail about how Hitler sought peace with Britain and the west. More than that he sought an alliance with Great Britain. He proposed to send troops to defend Britain’s interest should it come under attack from anyone.
Germany didn’t seek to dominate the world. Its sought to take back some of the land stolen from it and the millions of Germans living on that land who were placed under foreign rule after WW I. Germany demanded Memel, Danzig and the Sudetenland back. Germany’s complaint was against Poland which held the German city of Danzig captive, with a population that was 95% German.
Like many other Europeans Germany also had a problem with the Soviet Union (largely under Jewish control) which the whole of Europe watched as it deliberately starved and murdered millions of its citizens in the 1930′s. It feared the Soviet Union would spread this horror to western Europe. The Soviet Union also had a problem with Germany. They had their own plans to attack Germany, but Germany struck first. But none of this had anything to do with western Europe which Hitler did not want to fight against in a war (France and Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way around but the liars have distorted this too).
While Germany was not a thriving democracy in the 1930′s it was not murdering millions of its citizens. It did institute a racist policy against its fairly small Jewish population of around 500,000 people. There were some physical attacks on Jews in the 1930′s but these were exacerbated by foreign Jews actions against Germany during the 1930′s. And while much of what Jewish leaders and their loyal media were doing was in the open (such as declaring a worldwide boycott of German products almost immediately upon Hitler taking power and Chaim Weizmann’s threat that all the world’s Jews would fight against Germany), there was much more going on behind the scenes that the Germans had suspicions about – and their suspicions were valid. Prominent Jews gave Winston Churchill money to bail him out of debt and they paid him to launch a war against Germany and murder millions of Germans. That is how a conflict between a world power (Germany) and Poland (a country that didn’t even exist 20 years earlier) was made into a world war.
David Irving’s speech on Churchill, his Jewish financiers and how Churchill became Hitler and Germany’s greatest enemy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKuXW2fLkz4
And the fact that the third or fourth most powerful man in Germany, Rudolf Hess, came close to killing himself in a solo flight to Scotland in 1941 to bring peace between Germany and Great Britain is completely consistent with the other facts. The way the liars dealt with this was to declare Rudolf Hess insane.
I am afraid the “collective psychosis” Gilad speaks of was working against world peace already in the 1930′s. Contrary to the picture put to the world, Jews were not shy and shuddering, they were standing tall and telling these newcomers (the “master race”) that the “chosen people” were going to do everything in their power to bring ruin and destruction to Germany. And they succeeded.
Now that so many of the lies have been exposed, such as the skin and lampshades fantasy and the claim that 4 million people were murdered at Auschwitz and the whole gas chamber claim is in doubt by many, its time to examine the true culprits responsible for 50 million dead Europeans.
Neither Hitler, Stalin, Churchill nor Roosevelt personally killed anyone during WW II (with the exception of Hitler killing himself at the end), their political actions caused deaths. And while the world has pointed the finger at German leaders (and its entire population) for killing innocent Jews, its long overdue that the finger be pointed at Jewish leaders for paying the leader of Great Britain to murder millions of Germans. These facts put Germany’s actions toward Jews in a completely different perspective.
If I was a leader of a country and I suspected that an enemy nation or people was plotting to bring the whole world together as an alliance to attack my country and the leader of that group (Chaim Weizmann) publicly stated that every Jew in the world would fight against Germany, I would take those threats seriously and I would be concerned about the Jews in my country as potential threats also. And the fact that the most prominent German Jew in the world wrote a letter to the president of the USA in August 1939 (before the war even started) encouraging him to build an atomic bomb to drop on Germans confirms this threat.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Of course, one should not go ‘too far the other way’ and defend the Nazis…
searching
April 12, 2012 at 2:55 pm
Let’s not make Hitler into some kind of just and responsible ,although easily manipulated leader ,who “only wanted the best for Germany”.
He was evil, demonical, cruel guy, who craved Power and Domination and did not have mercy or justice in his heart.
Ass far as Germany of wanting to attack Soviet Union .Hm…
You forgot ,conveniently ,
to mention the infamous Ribbentrov-Molotov Pact that was signed between Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany in August 23 ,1939 .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
The pact sanctified the attack on Poland on 09.17.1939 by Germany ,and on 09.17.1939 by Soviet Russia. They left each other in peace ,while happily devouring Poland and killing its people.
Poland was in 1939 only about 20 years old ,after receiving back its sovereginity, which was lost prior to that, for more than 100 years, due to the insatiable apetites for domination of 3 Powers (Russia, Germany, Austria).
Let’s not colorize the history the other way.
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 3:25 pm
That is correct. Germany attacked Poland after demanding Danzig back and an autobahn to East Prussia because Germany was chopped into two pieces as a result of the creation of Poland. Hitler told this to the Polish foreign minister Jozef Beck in early 1939 when Beck came to Germany and Hitler said he wanted Poland to remain a country.
But none of this was any of Great Britain’s, France’s or the USA’s business. You didn’t see Germany attacking Great Britain for its beatings of Indians and its mass murder of 3 million of Indians during the war. Germany didn’t attack the USA when it murdered over 1 million Iraqis in 2003. It didn’t attack the USA when it attacked Afghanistan either. And Germany didn’t attack France for colonizing Vietnam, Algeria and other countries. It didn’t attack France when the French massacred so many Algerians in the 1950′s and 60′s.
Hitler’s demands for the return of German territory were very reasonable. In fact he was an appeaser. As the son of a mother born in Memel (stolen from Germany by the allies in 1923) I would have demanded all the land stolen from Germany back if possible.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 3:00 pm
“Germany didn’t seek to dominate the world. Its sought to take back some of the land stolen from it and the millions of Germans living on that land who were placed under foreign rule after WW I. Germany demanded Memel, Danzig and the Sudetenland back.”
The Sudetenland was never part of Germany. So there’s mistake #1.
“Germany’s complaint was against Poland which held the German city of Danzig captive, with a population that was 95% German.”
Mistake #2: Danzig was not made part of Poland; it was a free city.
“Like many other Europeans Germany also had a problem with the Soviet Union (largely under Jewish control) which the whole of Europe watched as it deliberately starved and murdered millions of its citizens in the 1930′s. It feared the Soviet Union would spread this horror to western Europe.”
Yes, so to head this plan off at the pass, Germany went into the USSR and did what? Starved the people.
“The Soviet Union also had a problem with Germany. They had their own plans to attack Germany, but Germany struck first.”
Bullshit. If that’s true, why did Germany plow over so much territory so quickly?
“But none of this had anything to do with western Europe which Hitler did not want to fight against in a war (France and Britain declared war on Germany, not the other way around but the liars have distorted this too).”
What happened on May 10, 1940? What forced Hitler’s hand on that day?
[...]
“If I was a leader of a country and I suspected that an enemy nation or people was plotting to bring the whole world together as an alliance to attack my country and the leader of that group (Chaim Weizmann) publicly stated that every Jew in the world would fight against Germany, I would take those threats seriously and I would be concerned about the Jews in my country as potential threats also. And the fact that the most prominent German Jew in the world wrote a letter to the president of the USA in August 1939 (before the war even started) encouraging him to build an atomic bomb to drop on Germans confirms this threat.”
Which came first: Germany declaring Hitler chancellor or the Jews declaring their boycott?
And when answering that question, answer this one also, please: In what year was Hitler appointed Chancellor and how many years was this AFTER Mein Kamp was published?
If David Duke were elected President of the United States, don’t you think some black people in other countries might declare a boycott?
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Not just the Sudetenland, but all of Czechoslovakia was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. Prague was a German city founded by Germans (Austrians) whose ethnic mnakeup had changed in the 1700′s and 1800′s. The Czechs lived in Bohemia and Moravia which was had always been a part of Hitler’s homeland, the other German country Austria. Danzig was called a “free city” (how ironic) by the allies after they stole Danzig and gave the newly created Poland special rights towards the city.
Every country in the world has ethnic minorities.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 3:50 pm
German is not Austria. I’m Austrian (in part) so I know this. My last name is Austrian — from Vorarlberg specifically. The difference has always existed and was really sort of codified at least since the Thirty Years’ War, or at least since Bismarck chose not to attempt to annex Austria.
(In case it hasn’t been said here before, I am of mixed Jewish and non-Jewish ancestry. My non-Jewish ancestry is Austrian and Italian.)
So Prague wasn’t founded by Germans, and it’s wrong to claim Austrians founded it either. It’s a Bohemian city — founded by the Boii:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii
(And, yes, some of my Jewish ancestors came from Prague. The rest came from Germany — all before the U.S. Civil War.)
So what “special rights” were the Poles given to Danzig?
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Austria is a German country and Prague was founded by Germans. Prague’s population was mainly German speaking until around the 1700′s.
Before Germany was created as a nation the Germans lived in many nations and kingdoms, Prussia and Austria were the biggest. But there was also Bavaria and many others.
Among other things, the Poles were given a post office in Danzig. The Poles represented Danzig when dealing with foreign nations, the railway line was administered by Poland and the Westerplatte was given to the Poles as a military post.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Repeating false allegations doesn’t make them true.
I know that Prague’s population was German-speaking. My ancestors who came from there spoke German — not Czech or Yiddish, for that matter.
Austria, however, is not a German country — though German is spoken there. Nor is Switzerland a German country.
“Among other things, the Poles were given a post office in Danzig.”
And there was also a Danzig municipal post office.
“The Poles represented Danzig when dealing with foreign nations”
But not without consulting with the government of the Freie Stadt. See Article 6 of the agreement.
“the railway line was administered by Poland”
I’ll give you the railway line.
“and the Westerplatte was given to the Poles as a military post.”
But not the rest of the city. And it was given to the Poles because Danzig shipyard workers refused to load Polish munitions as the Poles were fighting off the Soviets.
So you’re about one for five on that.
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Poland had no rights in Danzig whatsoever, the USA and Britain’s crimes are relevant and Austria is a German country and its citizens (whether wise or not) cheered its union with Germany and Prague, Bohemia and Moravia (which formed the Czech part of Czechoslovakia) had always been a part of Austria.
And in this report Russia’s state run television broadcaster “Russia Today” reports on evidence Stalin planned to attack Germany.
http://rt.com/news/stalin-letter-sothebys-auction/
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Repeating falsehoods doesn’t make them true.
Jay Knott
April 13, 2012 at 12:05 am
‘Aemathisphd’ asks me to ‘learn some history’ because I said agreements between the victorious and losing powers of WWI which were renegotiated in the thirties ‘derived from the Versailles treaty’. Trying to tell the losing side from WWI what to do obviously derived from the impositions on that losing side, but became less and less effective. Hungary and Poland took bits of Czechoslovakia too. Russia took whole countries. Various regimes fought over Europe, just like France and Britain had divided up Africa. Some of them had racist, and we can now see, genocidal, attitudes toward certain minorities. Again, just like the British and other Empires. None of this is the slightest excuse for the Anglo-French declaration of war in September 1939.
pgg804
April 13, 2012 at 12:57 am
You know twice as much as he does. According to him rules, laws, morality and the difference between right and wrong only apply to his enemies. This explains his statement “The topic of the U.S.’s crimes (or Britain’s in Iran) is not relevant here”.
He, like the victorious allies after WW I can starve a million people, steal their land and create new countries, strip people of their rights and they just have to take it. He can travel to another continent where he has never been before, reference the bible and claim this land is his and expel and murder its population so he can populate it with his own people.
If he struck someone in the face and that person struck back, he would accuse the other person of being the aggressor.
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 3:54 pm
It would be more appropriate to call FDR or Churchill a “David Duke”. Churchill was a racist thru and thru tha used racial epithets for Britain’s subjugated darker races and FDR led the racist country of the USA that prohibited blacks from entering not only a university but even grade school long before Hitler instituted his policies against Jews and the USA kept those racist policies until the 1960′s.
searching
April 12, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Poland, my dear wounded German friend, was a country with about a 1000 years of history, prior to being divided by three monstorus European Powers.
Drop the whining, and stop colorizing history.
You want to play another ‘eternal victim” of history, time and circumstances???
There won’t be a peace in the world when everbody wants to play the role of the victim and forgive the oppressors, just because they are/were “our own, afer all not that oppressive opressors”.
Nothing gave the right for the Hitler to do, what he has done.
Nothing gives anybody any right to kill, destroy, humiliate, oppress innocent, powerless people, destroy , steal their land etc.
Unfortunately the whole history of humankind is full of it. Full o f injustice, opressions, wars, with occasional breaks for a relative peace.
We never learn.
There is always a somebody ,who is hurt, who is a “victim”, who demands blood and revange, who thinks he has a right to kill and destroy ,because he or his ancestors were sometime , in the course of history hurt or killed. We, as a group ,we never learn from past mistakes.
pgg804
April 12, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Don’t throw rocks if you live in glass house. Hitlers attack on Poland was no worse than the Bush’s attack on Iraq in 2003, but unlike Iraq Germany had a reason to attack and unlike Iraq, Poland could have prevented the attack. But again, this had nothing to do with Britain, France or the USA who have more blood on their hands with their colonies all over the world.
Also, why aren’t you criticizing Britain’s attack on Iran in 1941?
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 4:33 pm
The topic of the U.S.’s crimes (or Britain’s in Iran) is not relevant here. Sorry.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 4:49 pm
‘Aemathisphd’ says that Britain and America’s crimes are irrelevant. But they are relevant to the casus belli of WWII. Germany didn’t attack Britain to punish her for crimes against third parties. Britain did this to Germany. True, the UK had an ‘entangling alliance’ with Poland.
But Russia attacked Poland too. Britain didn’t declare war on Russia, rather, she spent the next two years trying to ally with her. This completely deconstructs the British excuse for starting the worst holocaust in history – it was anti-German prejudice. Where did that come from? Why did Saxons bomb Saxony? The Allied version is Germany started it, or war ‘broke out’. Chamberlain stated that ‘this country is now at war with Germany’ like it was a fact over which he had no control.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 5:32 pm
You act like Hitler didn’t lead Germany the whole time and hadn’t violated multiple agreements between 1933 and 1939.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 6:16 pm
‘Aemathisphd’ says Germany violated various agreements. These agreements derived from the Versailles treaty, which basically said ‘sign this, or we starve you to death’. Having said that, it’s true Hitler did get carried away, going far beyond righting the Versailles wrong.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 7:07 pm
Jay would like the readers here to believe that the only agreements to which Germany were bound were those based on the Treaty of Versailles. In fact, the guarantee Germany gave at Munich in 1938 — that it would make no more territorial demands in Europe after the Sudetenland — was not such an agreement. In fact, before attacking Poland the following September, Hitler marched into Prague on March 15, 1939 — a city that he was NOT given at Munich.
Please learn some history before debating, Jay.
Chester
April 12, 2012 at 3:27 pm
Military aggression was always part of the Nazi program, it was a question of when not if. And of course the strategy outlined in Mein Kampf of alliance with Britain was abandoned.
It came sooner than the Nazis wanted because the overheating of the economy, largely through rearmament, was leading to increased industrial militancy. The Nazis and their backers were scared stiff of a repeat of November 1918 and the Räterrepublik (the German workers’ council (soviets) republic).
It is true that Hitler wanted peace with Britain at the start. This is clear in the strategy he outlined in Mein Kampf.
But his ambitions went much further than taking back German-speaking territories such as the Sudetenland and Danzig into a Greater Germany.
The Nazi-Soviet Pact and the invasion and subsequent partition of Poland show that Hitler was prepared to risk war with Britain which is of course what happened.
Here’s the deal, I’ll grit my teeth and read Pat Buchanan if you can do likewise and read Timothy Mason.
searching
April 12, 2012 at 2:40 pm
The EU IS not only anti-British plot.
It is anti-European plot.
The main idea of the UE is to bring Europe down to its knees.
“Rape of Europa”
And it happens ,(Portugal, Greece already know it). Let’s not be deluded here, my friends. There is no time for it.
searching
April 12, 2012 at 2:57 pm
on 09.01.1939 by Germany
Gilad Atzmon
April 11, 2012 at 2:49 pm
We are dealing with a collective psychosis, it is horrific..
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 4:11 pm
Is there any other nation in the world where you make deductions about their collective based on one individual’s opinion?
Jonathon Blakeley
April 11, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Is there any other nation threatening the rest of the World in such an extreme manner?
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 4:26 pm
As far as I can tell this 78 year old poet doesn’t really possess any nukes.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 4:34 pm
Why then don’t you write a letter of protest against the poem, emphasizing that his is just “one individual’s opinion” and what you consider wrong with it?
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 4:41 pm
To be honest I didn’t really understand what the fuss about Gunter Grass poem was. I thought the reaction by the Israeli government was ridiculous and foolish. There was no reason to give him the world’s attention he was seeking. He is entitled for his own opinion that Israel is a danger to world peace and Itamar Yaoz-Kest is entitled to vent his frustration with the international community in this poem.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 5:14 pm
So you think Grass’s “let’s not give them nuclear submarines, they are dangerous” is on the par with Yaoz-Kest’s
” not a single blade of grass will remain on the face of the Earth…. Because it is my right!… For it is the right of the Nation of Israel to finally shut the gates to the world… let the Earth roll toward the Nothingness”?
Jay Knott
April 11, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Gilad’s deductions are not based on one individual’s opinion, but on the opinions of the majority of the Israeli adult population, with which he is familiar.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 4:31 pm
Do you personally truly believe Israel would use nukes against USA Britain Canada and other state which have not attacked it?
Where do you see the majority opinion as not rational to the point of “collective psychosis”?
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 5:15 pm
“Do you personally truly believe Israel would use nukes against USA Britain Canada and other state which have not attacked it?”
Nooooo, only “by mistake”—see USS Liberty.
But it not, then it is OK, no problem, just nuke the Middle East…
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 5:27 pm
When American forces attack British forces in Afghanistan do you also assume it was done on purpose?
There are friendly fire incidents in every war. More IDF soldiers were killed by friendly fire during Cast Lead than by enemy fire.
Gilad Atzmon
April 11, 2012 at 6:29 pm
Liberty was done in purpose, this is why it was shoved under the carpet for so many years. Otherwise one should explain why USA Navy pilots were ordered back.
Re collectivism.. i am not interested in statistics. I am a philosopher, i’m interested in cultural, ideological and spiritual genocidal continuum. And tragically this can easily be traced. I welcome every to stand up against it and indeed some do..
searching
April 11, 2012 at 6:48 pm
Traced ?? Where?? To whom??
Wonder what is your answer, but please do not advise me reading your book.
It will take a while
I’ll publically inform you when I start reading it.:)
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 7:03 pm
What possible motive could there possibly be for Israel to attack the USS Liberty after the war was basically won?
You wil have to give more details regarding the USA Navy pilots being ordered back. Why wouldn’t USA Navy pilots be called back if it was a case of mistaken identity by the IDF? Do you claim the US government was part of the conspiracy?
Paul Eisen
April 11, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Possibly thay didn’t want the world to know about their planned assault on the Golan. Or perhaps they didn’t want their massacre of Egyptian POWs in the Sinai to come out.
Anyway, they have quite a history of biting the hand that feeds the – just look at the King David Hotel
But for my money, they probably did it just because they could.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 9:17 pm
Didn’t want the world to know about the attack on the Golan? How could that be kept a secret and for how long? An hour? A day?
You claim Israel was afraid USA will pass IDF war plans to Syria?
The British occupation forces were the hand feeding Israel?
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Another theory is the Israelis thought the ship would sink with all hands, and they could claim the Egyptians did it. See Phil Giraldi in The American Conservative.
Mariapalestina
April 12, 2012 at 3:28 am
That just proves that Israel’s military forces aren’t very competent. Probably it’s because they rarely face an adversary who’s armed, so they get sloppy. They are trained to shoot at any Palestinian who moves (or even who don’t move) so it’s easy to understand that after a couple of joints or a few beers they might get careless and shoot at each other.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 8:18 am
You cleary don’t understand the complexity of modern warfare especially when fighting in urban terrain and focusing on fighting at night.
fool me once...
April 12, 2012 at 11:30 am
“You cleary don’t understand the complexity of modern warfare”
“More IDF soldiers were killed by friendly fire during Cast Lead than by enemy fire.”
You say this when you were basically shooting fish in a barrel. You sound incompetant and deluded son, similiar to the U.S bullyboy baffoons.
Start thinking for yourself Cosmo, they’re just using you to take part in killing people you have never even met. Think about dedicating the rest of your life to alleviating the real suffering of the innocent, you’ll be glad you did.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 2:38 pm
COSMO; Didn’t want the world to know about the attack on the Golan? How could that be kept a secret and for how long? An hour? A day?
Not for long but by that time the deed is done and can’t be undone. The Israelis were racing against time before the ceasefire.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 3:23 pm
So you don’t share what I think Gilad Atzmon’s view that the American government was part of the conspiracy?
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 3:49 pm
I don’t know if they knew about it before it happened (they possibly did) but they definitely were part of the cover-up.
Gilad Atzmon
April 11, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Jay, it isn’t just ‘Israelis’, AIPAC is pushing for a war against Iran in the open.
Jay Knott
April 11, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Yeah, I know. I still find it hard to say ‘Jews’ or ‘a large section of the Jewish community worldwide’, but that’s the truth.
Gilad Atzmon
April 11, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Sorry Cosmo, our poet of doom is consistent with the OT, it is consistent with AIPAC recent push for a war and also with Netanyahu latest rants so who is it within the collective who actually opposes this new world War?
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 4:46 pm
well recent polls show the majority of Israelis are against an Israeli strike in Iran.
But I don’t think you would find alot of people supporting shutting down the gates to the world after we leave.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 5:21 pm
“well recent polls show the majority of Israelis are against an Israeli strike in Iran.”
I believe that. What? Go it alone?
They want the big bad Shabbath Goy to whom “we tell what to do” to get a move on and do it for them.
I want to see a poll that asks them if they agree/oppose a “preventive” nuclear attack on Iran by the US.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 5:30 pm
Well I think most Americans support an American attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities as well.
searching
April 11, 2012 at 5:33 pm
How do you know that??
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 5:37 pm
Not sure which post were you replying to…
How do I know most Israelis would be against blowing up the world? I guess like I know most Israelis are against making carrots illegal it is just too absurd.
How do I know most Americans support an attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2102-503544_162-57395830.html
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 5:59 pm
The poll you reference asks about “military action” and that is not nuclear attack.
Many Americans are sadly deluded that
–”preventive” attacks are justified
–such attacks are “surgical strikes” and they enjoyed watching on their TV screens the images of bombs dropped on Iraq–supposedly (but not really) “military objectives”– from high altitude.
If the question was instead framed as you imply by your wrong parallel:
“Would you favor a nuclear war on Iran?” I am confident that the response would be quite different, even from jingoistic Americans.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 6:05 pm
Why would there be a nuclear attack on Iran? Neither Israel nor USA are talking about a nuclear attack on Iran.
I am talking about destroying Iran’s nuclear sites before they obtain a nuclear bomb. Just like Israel did in Iraq and Syria. No nuclear power by Israel was used.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 6:01 pm
You did not address my point, but as usual deflected it:
“I want to see a poll that asks them if they agree/oppose a “preventive” nuclear attack on Iran by the US.”
I meant the Israelis.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 6:11 pm
Well I don’t think there is such a poll because an American nuclear attack on Iran isn’t on the table. If you find one show me.
fool me once...
April 11, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Cosmo, regarding any nuclear attack, listen up to 2.30mins and tell us if you think what is said, has any relevance to the Iran situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDRrhnp7iqk
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 5:34 pm
The Americans claim to have ‘bunker buster’ bombs and the planes to deliver them, and the Israelis don’t. They are not nuclear, they are pencils of depleted uranium which are so hard and dense, and travel so fast, they can go right through the ground, and enter concrete bunkers. They don’t explode, but supersonic travel through km. of earth makes them very hot, and they vaporise the contents of the bunkers. They are like US anti-tank missiles, but bigger and faster.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 4:22 pm
Shocking yet not surprising.
Aware of the of the disapproval of the “others” who do not “understand”/appreciate” them and fearful of the consequences if caught, psychotics usually operate in hiding. They are the nice and peaceful next-door neighbors most people do not suspect.
Israel has presented the set-upon nice neighbor mask to the world, always in “legitimate defense” pretty consistently until Sharon.
Sharon ripped the mask off jubilantly, as psychotics do when they feel in power, even invincible, and want the world to know that theyare the ones who “tell them what to do,” not the other way round.
Unmasked but armed to its teeth, Israel is now willing to take the world hostage and blow it up, including itself.
I blame the world for allowing it to go this far, but I blame the US most, whose Congress and media have long been its acquiescing hostages and its enablers.
Gilad Atzmon
April 11, 2012 at 4:39 pm
Arianda, you are right for blaming the world for allowing it to go this far, yet in order to shake the world we must identify the enemy within, culturally and ideology… Those who attempt to silence free speech and free exchange …
We must drift away from Jerusalem and search for the spirit of Athens. We must reinstate ethical thinking…
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Yes, and what better teaching material then Yaoz-Kest’s poem?
Is there any chance he could be a very clever man who, animated by the best and noblest intentions, decided to help everyone understand Grass’s message in the clearest way?
who_me
April 11, 2012 at 8:08 pm
ariadna
well said.
searching
April 11, 2012 at 5:07 pm
So basically the idea od this sorry, pathetic “poem ” is a threat.
Threat of blowing up the whole, poor mother Earth that sustains us all, if its inhabitants won’t cooperate with Almigthy Israel ,( that probably gathered enough nukes hidden in a desert to blow up 1/2 , or more, of the globe).
So ,the message to us is: ” do as WE say, or else , y’all will be pushing up the daisies”.
You, anti-Semites, who hate Jewish people from the day you were born. We don’t care now because we have ALL the Power and nukes, so you better be nice to us ,and we don’t even have to be nice to you, becasue we JUST don’t care.
This is madness. Looney House politics.
This is insane, suicidal maniac holding hostage the whole Universe with a threat of blowing up everybody, including himself.
searching
April 11, 2012 at 5:20 pm
So here we have a poem, by G Grass, in which he very reasonably informs everbody about the real , nuclear threat that is coming from Almighty Israel,and as the answer they produce a “poem” that actually confirms clearly Grass’s assumptions nad the main message of it is “so what, we blow everybody up if we feel like doing it. Nanana. What are you gonna do to us. You Nazi G.G. soldier wearing a steel helemt”.
It is SO absurd that is seems unreal.
It is a serious terroristic threat to ALL people on Earth. Unbelievable.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 11, 2012 at 7:39 pm
Could not put it better. This is the most insane thing Israel has done in ages. It actually confirms G Grass’ poem. Reverse Hasbara Overdrive
searching
April 11, 2012 at 5:43 pm
it looks like my dear prof Finkelstein is on the same line as most of us here. Thanks God.
I was tiny bit worried.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/good-news-israel-might-still-have-time-to-annihilate-the-planet-these-people-are-sick/
Eldon
April 11, 2012 at 7:12 pm
What do we got here, that deserves the “oy vey” dear officer krupke “Jewish collective psychosis”.
Itamar Yaoz-Kest is a Holocaust survivor, born in Hungary to a family that moved the process of assimilation – his maternal grandfather, believed that integration into Hungarian society – is a solution to the Jewish problem, but assimilation did not save the family during the Holocaust. most of his family were murdered, he his mother and sister were sent to concentration camps and managed to survive (Sounds similar to many Jewish families in Europe, guess also to Atzmon family).
Now, if it was a second or third generation Israeli writing this Poem, I would say….. There are some young generation Israelis, that got this view.
But taking a Holocaust survivor, which I find more then understandable, that he will react to Grass poem and impress his opinion in every hard way, I would maybe not accept it, but understand were it comes from and it dose not come from a psychosis, but from a life trauma..
But for you, this man who went through a trauma, his motive for writing this poem, is not just ignored, but labels him as a model for Jewish Collective psychosis, I guess I would have to send this message to those who “survived the Holocaust” from your family and ask them what they think.
You failed again to find the example you are looking for, you may not accept his poem, but I think you owe him an apology.
Paul Eisen
April 11, 2012 at 8:50 pm
Holocaust surivor? What’s that? You mean he’s a refugee like millions of other refugees the world over.
ariadna
April 11, 2012 at 10:20 pm
“but understand were it comes from and it dose not come from a psychosis, but from a life trauma..”
WAKE UP! Understand that normal, sane people endowed with a conscience don’t buy and are in fact sick and tired of hearing this excuse for war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and now threats of engulfing the world in a nuclear destruction.
If it were just a defense attorney saying that his client, the lone homicidal maniac, must be “understood” because he was abused a child and never got over the trauma it would be one thing. But when almost the whole Tribe and certainly his own state stands behind him it is another.
Gilad Atzmon
April 12, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Eldon, what an idiotic comment. Grass’s poem expresses and authentic yearning for world peace. Kest’s poem is a serenade for another Jewish genocide..
Should we allow it or accept it because Kest is a ‘H survivor’? In other words, should we encourage Jews to kill endlessly in the name of their Jewish suffering, is this you solution to the Jewish question?
Eldon
April 12, 2012 at 10:00 pm
Atzmon you failed again with your foolish way of thinking and jumping to conclutions.
Did I mention that “Should we allow it or accept it because Kest is a ‘H survivor”’?”
I mentioned “I would maybe not accept it, but understand were it comes from and it dose not come from a psychosis, but from a life trauma”..”
You just ignore the subjective motive of both writers who share the same life experience each with his own side.
I do not share Grass honesty, even though he cares and “yearning for world peace” and on the other side, I do not accept the call of Itamar, but I can understand where it comes from, while for you, Itamar comes from “nowhere” to this saga and labeling him as your conclusion, as the typical format of the “Jewish collective psychosis” just shows to what a low level you got and how you are completely missing your point..
If your issue is “should we encourage anybody to kill anyone” then you did not just missed the point, but your argument and the poem of Itamar as an example, is completely stupid..
searching
April 12, 2012 at 10:45 pm
Eldon, To be in a major trauma survivor does not give anybody a right to go after innocent people, to blow the whole Earth up because, “I or my family or kin were hurt/killed”.
Do you really think that calling for a bloody revenge on a completely innocent people is a way of dealing with one’s own trauma?
NOBODY has a right to do it ,and NOTHING gives him/her this right.
There are//were plenty of people hurt/killed injustly/brutally throughout the history.
Only your kin wants to punish the whole globe/earth for their own suffering.
THIS IS a sign of a COLLECTIVE PSYCHOSIS.
Look what another Holocaust surviovr, whose family died in the WWII wrote:
“. The truth — that love is the ultimate and the highest goal to which man can aspire. Then I grasped the meaning of the greatest secret that human poetry and human thought and belief have to impart: The SALVATION OF A MAN is through LOVE and IN LOVE. I understood how a man who has nothing left in this world STILL KNOWS bliss, be it only for a brief moment, in the contemplation of his beloved.”
He thought of those powerful words while being in a concentration camp.
it is a quote from Victor Frankl’s “man’s search for meaning” . Beautiful book, a rare, true gem on the subject of Holocaust, human suffering.
Take him as an example.
Eldon
April 12, 2012 at 11:03 pm
Searching.
Do you READ a comment before you jump with nonsense words.
were did I mentioned that “major trauma survivor does not give anybody a right to go after innocent people”
I mentioned clearly, that “I do not accept the call of Itamar”, so what are you blowing your useless words about.
Read a comment before you make a fool out of yourself.
who_me
April 11, 2012 at 7:54 pm
it is people like yaoz-kest who show that victims of atrocity often are permanently warped by it. some become the same sort of monsters their oppressors were. this is one reason why most countries don’t let criminal victims determine the punishment of their attackers. there would be the consequence of that society devolving into a brutal action-reaction gang.
israel is a country where the people are brainwashed into thinking they are all victims of some major atrocity. their views of outsiders have been reduced to a simple minded “us or them” mentality. with that view determining their relations, israelis have been made incapable of thinking beyond their own base greed and fears. they then act in barbaric ways that insure the circle of hostility will continue. the leadership wants this. they want an insulated, irrationally vengeful and fearful herd to manipulate.
this is what the nazis attempted with their group psychosis projects like the hitler youth. the israelis have managed to take this derangement much further in the sense they created a whole country of “hitler youth” mentality. something the nazis dreamed of doing, but failed at on such a large scale.
who_me
April 11, 2012 at 8:05 pm
the comments of hasbara nazis, like cosmo and eldon, show how this national psychosis of israel can do no real wrong, and by extension, any israel-supporting jew, has warped people into defending the most repulsive and depraved forms of human behaviour. they have become so deluded with their own specialness, they are oblivious to the fact most people now view them as a sort of “hitler youth” herd of mentally and morally deficient individuals. their attempts to force worship of israel, zionism and jews is having the opposite effect. people are seeing these people as the source of the major problems confronting the world and israel as the centre of this reversal of civilization.
Cosmo
April 11, 2012 at 9:04 pm
Take a few breaths and calm down. Nazis like Cosmo and Eldon? Really?
Not sharing your opinion makes us Nazis? I thought all you in the Gilad Atzmon crowd were all about free speech and allowing different thought to be heard.
“Defending the most repulsive and depraved forms of human behavior.” The man wrote a poem, he didn’t eat a baby. I think I made it quite clear I don’t support the way the Israeli government handled the Gunter Grass case and I don’t share the views put forward by Itamar Yaoz-Kest in his poem. I am not really sure how any of what I have said made you think my comments show “psychosis of israel can do no real wrong, and by extension, any israel-supporting jew.”
I keep reading here comments referring to some sort Jewish superiority or “specialness” or whatever, but it never comes from pro Israel commentators only from anti Israel commentators.
Jewish people and Israeli people are just like everybody else they are not super human and they are not ultimate evil. They care about themselves more than they care about others. Just like any other people. That can explain most of what you might regard as evil behavior. But the truth is chances are most people would act about the exact same way if not worse were they in Israel’s shoes.
Roy Bard
April 11, 2012 at 10:49 pm
“I thought all you in the Gilad Atzmon crowd were all about free speech and allowing different thought to be heard.”
Why is it you think that everyone who posts here is the same? There are some major differences between us, in age experience, upbringing, philosophy, religion and politics. We don’t always agree with each other – which is as well, or the conversation would get stale and boring.
As to pro-Israelites caring for themselves more than than others – I think it fair to say they care about the Palestinians much less than others……… They also care less about the supporters of the Palestinians. And that is behaviour that is quite simply not “just like other people”. The only other place I have experienced such an uncaring attitude towards an oppressed other is in Apartheid South Africa.
Do you see how that might be a perception that some people have?
who_me
April 12, 2012 at 1:38 am
Roy Bard
re: the response to cosmo’s spam: “Why is it you think that everyone who posts here is the same?”
it’s that jewish/israeli/zionist us vs them attitude. the thems are all the same to these people, the same way white bigots would think of blacks as all the same. if one isn’t one of the chosen, then one is outside and not worthy of being thought of as individuals, they’re just objects to exploit, manipulate and ultimately, hate.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 8:40 am
My experience has been that when it comes to Jews (not so much Zionists and even less Israelis) it is pretty much ‘us verses them’. And that comes from both sides.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 8:25 am
I thought that with regards to freedom of speech and freedom of thought you are on the same page.
From the site About section: deLiberation are thinkers, writers, artists, musicians and activists, each committed to freedom of thought and to telling the stories that the mainstream media is there to conceal.
I understand you all have diffrent thoughts about diffrent subjects.
Caring less about the side of your enemy is normal and is exactly how any other people would act in Israel’s situation.
Roy Bard
April 12, 2012 at 8:38 am
Remind us what it is that the Palestinians did to become your enemy…..
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 9:03 am
Isn’t that the whole point of the peace process? The fact that there we are in a state of unresolved conflict. I won’t go over all the history starting with 1921 massacres, the fact that for hundreds of years under Muslim rule Jews were forbidden to enter their own holy sites. Until the latest rounds of conflict in Gaza.
Israel doesn’t want the Palestinians as enemies it is the Palestinians that want to to perpetuate the conflict until they get their wish and dissolve the state of Israel.
Israel is offering many thing in peace negotiations, water, land, holy sites… Palestinians are only holding one card and that is ending the conflict, and not being Israel’s enemy anymore.
Roy Bard
April 12, 2012 at 9:11 am
“Israel is offering many thing in peace negotiations, water, land, holy sites…”
Is that the same Israel that is still now taking land in the West Bank?
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 9:28 am
I personally am against the settlement enterprise. I believe it was an historic mistake. You have to understand that for some reason the Palestinians believe time is on their side and the longer they wait the better deal they would get, they say so themselves. While pro Palestinians everywhere talk about horrible of situation and how much Palestinians suffer, Palestinian leaders are doing whatever they can to avoid signing a peace deal. In a way settlements are Israel’s only way of showing the Palestinians the urgency of ending the conflict and that tomorrows offer might not necessarily be better than today’s.
The fact is despite all this land taking in the WB Israel still offered the Palestinians in 2008-2009 the exact same amount of land Palestinians asked for when they first entered negotiations.
Laura Stuart
April 12, 2012 at 10:44 am
“the exact same amount of land Palestinians asked for when they first entered negotiations.”
Why do the Palestinians have to ask the Israelis how much of their own land they can have back?
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Laura Stuart
This is not some philosophical debate about morals taking place in a vacuum. I am interested in reaching an actual solution and Palestinians have to deal with reality and at the end of the day negotiate with Israel in order to get their own state.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 2:13 pm
I think talking about ‘the Occupied West Bank and Gaza’, or ‘the settlements’, or how ‘the apartheid wall stole Palestinian land’ are diversions. It means Israel always has a fallback position. Suppose it eventually agreed to the 1967 frontiers. It would look like a massive concession. But it would ratify ethnic cleansing. It would mean accepting that the massacres up to 1967 were better than ones after. The thing is to oppose racial supremacy altogether, rather than discussing where it should be allowed to apply.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Cosmo
Can you briefly lay out for us the Jewish claim to any part of Palestine?
I think if you did, it would help the discussion.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 2:51 pm
I was born in Israel my parents were born in Israel the 4th generation of our family is living here. This is our only country and we don’t have to explain what claim we have to live here any more than an American has to explain why does he have a right to live in his home or a Colombian has to expain his claim to his own country.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 3:28 pm
Maybe so and maybe not but what about Jews in other parts of the world. What rights do they have to any part of Palestine?
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 4:13 pm
Paul Eisen. As to Jews in other parts of the world Israel is entitled to run its own immigration policy just like any other country. Israel was established as the homeland to Jewish people not only to the Jewish people that were living there during 1948.
When a Palestinian state will be established I assume and hope they will have their own version of the Israeli law of return allowing all members of the Palestinian people to gain a Palestinian citizenship even if they lived all their lives in Canada or Lebanon. I don’t think people from France or Australia would think it is any of their business to interfere with the Palestinian immigration policy and ask them what right do those great grandchildren of Palestinians to move to Palestine. In the exact same way I don’t think people which are not Israeli citizenship have a saying in Israeli immigration policy.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 5:44 pm
If you are a 4th generation Palestinian like Cosmo you should certainly have the right to live there. So should 10th generation Palestinians. But they don’t have that right. And Cosmo doesn’t have the right to deny them that right. Eventually, the Western countries will stop allowing it. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 8:12 pm
Jay Knott. Just to be clear I am 3rd generation living in Israel, the 4th are my nephews and niece.
The European Court of Human Rights ruled against the right of return in the case of Cyprus because too much time have passed, ownership has changed and so on. Despite the amount of double standard there is against Israel. I doubt the West will be so biased to make a different ruling when it comes to Palestinian’s right of return where more time have passed and the consequence of such a return will be far more drastic.
Roy Bard
April 13, 2012 at 1:12 am
“I doubt the West will be so biased to make a different ruling when it comes to Palestinian’s right of return where more time have passed and the consequence of such a return will be far more drastic.”
So, are you not suggesting that it may in fact benefit Israel to oppress the Palestinians for as long as possible? That there may actually not be a real peace offer on the table at all?
I thought about it for quite a long time and I came to the conclusion that precisely 0% of the children with PTSD symptoms in Gaza were alive in 1921. So why are they your enemies?
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 2:26 pm
The Ottoman Empire saved Jews from persecution by the Catholic regimes of Europe. For hundreds of years they lived in peace. At some point there were pogroms. We are taught that these were simply outbursts of hatred. The USA’s official position is that Zionism is not a form of racism, because Jews were always simply victims, wherever they roamed. I know that Jewish ideology today is ungrateful and utterly contemptuous of gentiles dumb enough to co-operate, and hateful toward any goy who mildly questions his subservient role. Isn’t it possible that this is true of the Ottoman Empire, and elsewhere too?
Jay Knott
April 13, 2012 at 3:33 am
Cosmo says the Western countries should not ‘have a saying in Israeli immigration policy’. He’s right – they didn’t tell South Africa how to run apartheid, they made it stop. It’s exactly the same with Israel – except unlike South Africa, the Western countries support it, unconditionally and very expensively. But eventually these countries will tire of the ethnic strategy known as ‘chutzpah’ – Cosmo is typical in claiming the Western countries are biased AGAINST his country. The hypocrisy, arrogance and ingratitude of these racialists has worked so well up ’til now, they actually believe what they say.
pgg804
April 13, 2012 at 5:52 am
And they certainly should not be supporting the murderous Israeli regime by sending billions of dollars in cash, loans and free military hardware every year and they should not be willing to murder muslims in one country after another for them.
And for countries that love to accuse others of racism they have no problem supporting racism in Israel. As usual, they’re hypocrites.
aemathisphd
April 13, 2012 at 4:24 pm
I submit that Israel’s immigration policies are the business of the international community if and only if it leaves the issue of Palestinian refugees unresolved.
If Israel and the Palestinians come to an agreement on the issue of refugees, it will no longer be the business of the international community to criticize Israel’s Law of Return. After all, many countries — notably Germany — allow for immigration of people who can claim ancestry to the country of arrival.
As another example, because my great-grandfather never became an American citizen, I can claim Italian citizenship if I want to and if I don’t mind paying the fees to file the forms.
By the way, whether the matter of Palestinian refugees is settled isn’t up to you people here: It’s up to the Palestinians. If they declare the matter settled, then it’s settled.
Gilad Atzmon
April 12, 2012 at 5:38 pm
Cosmo: “The man wrote a poem, he didn’t eat a baby.”
Gilad: Yet,
searching
April 11, 2012 at 11:37 pm
You are correct.
People all over the world
are getting tired of being shushed all the time for any slightest critic of Israel or its politics.
The Israel became the bully of the Northern hemisphere, and they hope to stay this way or else. They will blow it up.
I can’t understand how anybody ,at their right mind ,could plan a destruction of the whole globe ,and even announce it publically …..and get away with it.??
Why do they get away with it??
Bribed, corrupted , sleazy, ill-willed politicans,who serve those who pay them, corrupted ,prostituting, cowardly, mainstream media ,that day and night brainwash and steer voluntarily ignorant/indifferent public into cheap, thoughless entertainment Nirvana.
Massive consumptionism and materialism that blinded many into the massive, never-ending desire to own, to have, to guard, to insure,to show instead of to be, to evolve, to help each other, to grow spiritually/intellectally/emotionally.
Christainity blended like chameleon into the world, and became feel good, be nice and polite,God-opens-heaven-for-everybody-and-hell-will-be-closed-for-ever-and-ever “philosophy”.
Education became a uniform training in obedience, lack of creativity, and
applying all the aspects of “political correctness” at the very young age. Why wait?
Paul Eisen
April 11, 2012 at 8:47 pm
The atitudes in this poem are deeply embedded in the Jewish collective consciousness.
“We can do anything, absolutely anything becaue we have suffered so much.”
And if Jews had really suffered as much and as unjustifiably as they claim, it would be disgusting enough but given the wild embellishments of their ‘history’ it becomes pretty unbearable.
Outbursts like this poem make me think we’re approaching the end-game.
aemathisphd
April 11, 2012 at 10:11 pm
“And if Jews had really suffered as much and as unjustifiably as they claim, it would be disgusting enough but given the wild embellishments of their ‘history’ it becomes pretty unbearable.”
Two questions, Paul:
(1) How did your family come to live in the U.K.?
(2) Why do you use “they” in the above quote?
ariadna
April 12, 2012 at 1:01 am
You have NO opinion of the poem itself? You just came to heckle?
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 1:29 am
That’s correct. I came to heckle.
who_me
April 12, 2012 at 1:49 am
ariadna
aphid is one of those queens who are only able to gossip. and only the negative kind. other things just bore them.
who_me
April 12, 2012 at 1:52 am
all those things people talk about other than gossip? well, those things are for the goyim and the straights. those lesser peoples god seeded the planet with to be of service to the chosen for menial tasks – like intelligent conversation.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 1:54 am
You are gayer than eight guys blowing nine guys.
who_me
April 12, 2012 at 2:15 am
“You are gayer than eight guys blowing nine guys.”
i doubt any one here is interested in what you like to watch, aphid.
ariadna
April 12, 2012 at 2:19 am
8enemasPhD, OK?
ariadna
April 12, 2012 at 2:14 am
Don’t call him ‘aphid.’ He has explained too us that it is anti-semitic. Show a little sensitivity. Call him something he might like; for example since he calls people ‘asshole’ perhaps he would prefer to be called ‘enema.’
I am not excluding myself from criticism. I once surmised he is a haematologist. In retrospect I realize that was “blood libel” pure and simple.
We need to make increased efforts to subdue our anti-semitism while realizing we will never stamp it out–it is innate in us.
who_me
April 12, 2012 at 2:18 am
ariadna
when i see his name, it reminds of the word aphid, but i like your idea about calling enema. it’s a much better description of aemathisphd.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 7:21 am
I can’t see anything wrong with Dr Mathis’ comment. Even if it is a sort of heckle, what’s wrong with that?
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 7:02 am
They came to the U.K. as immigrants of course. But I think the point of your question is to draw my attentiion to the fact that they came to flee persecution. Well, perhaps they did – but my point was that however much Jews have suffered, it’s nowhere near as much as they claim to have suffered.
Coincidentally, I alluded to this in the opening paragraph of a short story I wrote based on my mother’s family. The story was called “Bialystock Blood” Here’s the first paragraph:
“They came from Bialystock at the turn of the century, and from there went all over the world. Wherever there were Jews you would find Levacks – England, America, Australia, Palestine. And wherever they went they hustled, bustled and invariably thrived. These were proud people, outgoing people, people with the get-up-and-go to leave the old and find the new. Legend has them as impoverished shtetl dwellers, fleeing from persecution, but there was nothing impoverished about this lot. And why should there be? The same people who could accept nothing but the best in the new country were hardly likely to have accepted any less in the old. And anyway it wasn’t so much persecution that drove them out. I think they just looked westwards and saw light bulbs, telephones and horseless carriages.”
Regarding why I use the word ‘they’ I suppose you’re pointing to the fact that I’m a self-identifying Jew so why not the word ‘we’.
Well, I don’t fully know the answer but certainly despite my very intense feelings of Jewishness, I’ve always had a decided lack of tribal loyalty.
You may say that makes me less of a Jew and you may be right. I don’t know.
BTW, I think the semi-abusive responses to your often very-abusive comments are a shame. Of course, if you were less abusive to start with, things would be better.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Paul, you are aware if what was going on in Bialystok around the turn of the last century, are you not? For starters, Alexander III was the tsar until 1894 — he had famous promised that, of the Jews in the Russian Empire — he would kill a third, convert a third, and force the remaining third to emigrate. This amounted to official Russian policy under the May Laws in the 1880s. This is why Jews emigrated from there.
Perhaps your ancestors were immune from such treatment. But why should they have been?
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 3:38 pm
You tell me something that the Tsar said (True/not true, context? Who knows and I don’t have the time to check it now) and from that we are suppoosed to accept an entire narrative of suffering.
What my great-grandparents and their children were experiencing on a day-to-day basis at that time, I don’t know. But if I had to have a guess I’d say they were considerably worse off than Jews are today in England but nowhere near as badly off as the Jewish mythology would claim. My guess is that they got by, but thought they could have a hell of a better life in the west.
I know you find this hard because for you, if you state a fact (which may well be true) you think that proves the truth of a whole narrative. But it doesn’t. To prove or disprove a narrative as complex as this one or for that matter the holocaust narrative, even if it were possible, you nned a lot more time and space than is available on the comments section of a website.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 3:42 pm
Well, Paul, then it’s a good thing you deny the Holocaust on such a Web site.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 3:43 pm
And by the way, when the Jews have to leave America, which I believe they will, they will carry with them similar tales of suffering. How do I know? Because they always do.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 3:52 pm
Paul, I think I need to tell you that we’re not going anywhere. This country gave us the right to own guns — barring a turn on us by the government, anyone trying to get rid of us is going to have something of a fight on his hands.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 3:55 pm
Oh for god’s sake…
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 4:37 pm
This is a not a small matter, Paul. Do you think we haven’t learned from history?
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Your ‘learning from history’ is like the Protestants of Northern Ireland going on about the battles against the Pope in the 17th century. Everyone thought they were nuts – but they didn’t have Hollywood.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 5:31 pm
And yet Northern Ireland is still part of the U.K…
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Dr Mathis, you are the strangest Jew I’ve ever met. So very many extreme Jewish stereotypes and all crammed so intensely into one person. And as you ioperate they all pop up one after the other.
First the modern, well-informed, moderate, sometimes almost dissident Jewish liberal
Then the talmudic, nit-picking obfuscator – anything but anything so long as you can appear to win the point.
Then the snarling hate-filled Jew, viciously turning on anyone and everyone. rather like our poet friend)
And then the clumsy, conventional JDL Jewish roughneck – NEVER AGAIN!!! Followed by the moderate, gentle appeal to my tribal loyalty
I’ve learned so much from our exchanges.
aemathisphd
April 12, 2012 at 8:09 pm
Paul writes, “I’ve learned so much from our exchanges.”
Well, that makes one of us.
Jay Knott
April 13, 2012 at 2:29 pm
‘Aemathisphd’ replies to my comment about the Proddies being nuts “and yet N. Ireland is still part of the U.K…”. I THINK what he’s saying is – being extreme did the trick for the Loyalists, and its the same with Jews. But the Irish Republicans were for a long time just as intransigent. I think the main reason for Britain’s expensive grip on N. Ireland is to do with the conservative core of the state, which is monarchist and Anglo-Protestant. A Labour prime minister once tried to change it, and was dissuaded in no uncertain terms. The Ulstermen are loyal to that state. From its point of view, abandoning them would be wrong. None of this is true of Israel. Western support for it is irrational. The fanatical self-righteousness of its supporters cannot explain it, otherwise everyone could get their own way by being like that. The relationship of AIPAC to the US govt. isn’t like the relationship of the Prods to the UK govt.. It could get the boot without abandoning anything essential about the USA.
Jay Knott
April 14, 2012 at 3:18 am
Stuck in the past, Eisen and Mathis discuss strategies for dealing with anti-Semitism. Eisen advocates understanding it, Mathis prefers shooting at it. It’s as if they haven’t noticed the rise of individualism, and the decline of tribalism, in the dominant Western societies, over the last few hundred years, crushing almost all efforts to perpetuate it. There’s only one serious form of ethnocentrism left. If the European world can do without white identity, it can surely get rid of Jewish ideology.
aemathisphd
April 14, 2012 at 4:50 am
Individualism means that I can respect anyone’s right to hate me, as long as they leave me alone. If they don’t leave me alone, I will hurt them back.
ariadna
April 14, 2012 at 1:26 pm
That’s your story and you stick to it, without ever pausing to ask why they don’t “leave you alone,” perhaps it is because you have hurt them. You forgot to add that their not leaving you alone is always irrational whereas your “hurting them back” is always righteous.
Paul Eisen
April 14, 2012 at 2:11 pm
And by the way Dr Mathis, you talk pretty big about guns, hitting back etc but at the end of the day Jewish power, like all power, is largely built on bluff – remember without all the money and blah blah, they’re only a load of Jews.
And remember the Jews in Germany were pretty powerful, so were the Jews in Spain and…I could go on and on.
Why don’t you focus more on being nicer to people. I really think that might help.
Paul Eisen
April 14, 2012 at 6:37 am
Jay Knott,
You could be right and it’s certainly worth thinking about but I’m not so sure that tribalism is declining or will ever decline. I’ve always assumed that it’s a very basic human characteristic.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 14, 2012 at 8:44 am
I agree it is time to move on.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 14, 2012 at 8:47 am
People need to let go of some of their old tribal traditions and embrace a more universal humanist approach.
searching
April 11, 2012 at 10:45 pm
“Outbursts like this poem make me think we’re approaching the end-game.”
I thought the same.
I feel sometimes that I know some secret, awful mystery that only some people know and reliase the danger of it.
I was today at the doctor, there was a TV in the waiting room , out of a boredom ,I took a peek on it ,( I don’t have Tv for quite a few years–very liberating).
Anyway, I listened to those chirping newscasters, who talked about nothing, while the audience was clapping and enjoying this nothingness.
The shallowness of the TV bothered me for a while, but I see that many people want to be/stay shallow/superficial. They just want “panem et circenses” ( bread nad circuses), and as long as they have it, they are happy. People want to be deluded and they will stay this way, till the very aend. And the prophets are/were never welcomed. They always spoiled the party.
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 7:05 am
““Outbursts like this poem make me think we’re approaching the end-game.”
I thought the same.”
Yes, it was the totally open, undisguised nature of this very Jewish outburst.
Like the sound of someone who has now nothing to lose and is going for the big one.
searching
April 11, 2012 at 10:35 pm
let’s imagine for a moment that this poem was written by an Iranian poet/writer, and placed in a popular Iranian newspaper with a proper endorsement?
Can you imagine the outrage, the wrath, the anger seeping from all the IsrUsaGBFrancoGermanyEU-and-other MSMedia outlets??
This problaby would be the REASON to start the war. A proof/pretext ,so much needed and desired, to attack the country.
We do live in such a pitiful, pathetic times that it’s almost impossible to comprehend.
Jay Knott
April 12, 2012 at 1:25 am
It’s not that difficult to comprehend. Imagine a worldwide organisation with the ability of Oppenheimer, the drive of Steve Jobs, and the money of Rockefeller, combined with the racism of Hitler, the hypocrisy of the Pope, and the resentment of Winnie Mandela, and let it go on unchallenged for 67 years.
Mariapalestina
April 12, 2012 at 3:33 am
Throw in the greed of Imelda Marcos and you’ve got Israel down to a T.
fool me once...
April 12, 2012 at 10:56 am
…and not forgetting the contradictions of the Cosmo’s.
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Contradictions such as?
Eldon
April 12, 2012 at 7:14 am
aemathisphd
“Paul Eisen is a Jewish convert to Christianity” – socialistunity, I guess it gives the answer, not that it bothers anyone at all, but if its true and he hides it, it just exposes his personality, as its better to be “jewish” once you go against it…………
Paul Eisen
April 12, 2012 at 7:22 am
But I’m not a convert to Christianity. If I was I’d say so.
searching
April 12, 2012 at 11:29 am
Eldon ,
you stepped into the Dominion of Master Gilad and his loyal friends so…. behave yourself.
Stop those delude accusations, slander,name calling, projections of your own, sick mind etc.
If you don’t have any reasonable arguements, go and take a hike.
Otherwise you will be thrown into a dark dungeon , where rats and mice rule ,food is scarce ,and there is no computers.
Lasse Wilhelmson
April 12, 2012 at 11:08 am
I would like to quote from the legendary journalist David Hirst’s classic “The Gun and the Olive Branch”. Hirst lets the renowned professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Martin van Crevald, speak of the necessity of implementing the final ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from Palestine, in order to save the Jewish state. Hirst wonders “But would the world allow such an ethnic cleansing?” and hands over to Creveld:
“That depends on who does it and how quickly it happens. We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them against targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our force … Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: `Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.´ I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen, before Israel goes under. ” (Page 119-120)
searching
April 12, 2012 at 11:21 am
I don’t doubt that.
Madness, if given a free ride, can’t be contained or restricted.
A sane person can’t comprehend madness to the full extent. But if a sane person lets the madness thrive or run amock, then the madness will win.
And down we’ll all go.
The sane and the mad ones, all together.
If sanity can’t exercise enough power, courage, wisdom etc. to stop the madness/insanity , in a way, we all become insane by accepting the situation.
Laura Stuart
April 13, 2012 at 12:26 am
Cosmo
April 12, 2012 at 2:45 pm
Laura Stuart
This is not some philosophical debate about morals taking place in a vacuum. I am interested in reaching an actual solution and Palestinians have to deal with reality and at the end of the day negotiate with Israel in order to get their own state.
Cosmo the state is irrelevant their need their land back, the land that is Palestine.
Jeffrey Blankfort
April 13, 2012 at 12:53 am
Rather than diverting the subject of this post into historical byways that are not, in my opinion, particularly relevant, although interesting, it is important to emphasize and demolish what it is: (1) the view of a misbegotten Israeli “poet,” Itamar Yaoz-Kest, that his personal victimization and that of the European Jewish collective at the hands of the Nazis was uniquely worse than that experienced by other humans, living or dead, such as (2) that gives him and his fellow Israeli Jews the right to determine, quite literally, the future of life on the planet and (3) whether that ultimate expression of his lack of humanity is representative of his fellow Israelis or a substantial part of them.
That this willingness, if Israel’s existence is threatened, to commit what is nothing less than what would be the worst (and, conceivably, the last) crime in human history, represents more than a mentally ill minority of Israeli society has been amply demonstrated over the years through published statements by Israelis across the spectrum, and not just by Shoah survivors and religious nut cases.
Should Yaoz-Kest not be censured at every level of Israeli society for his disgusting response to Grass—and I don’t expect him to be–it will be further proof that he was writing in Israel’s name.
I do not make any allowance for Yaoz-Kest and his tragic experience for over the years I have met women and men, and teenagers in classrooms, from Central America, Africa, and Asia, and, I should add, other Shoah survivors, who have suffered through experiences no less devastating and some much more so and yet vengeance against the world for not preventing what they went through was the furthest thing from their minds.
In 2003, the last time Gallup dared to take such a poll, 7500 people in 15 European countries expressed the belief that Israel was the greatest threat to world peace, followed by the United States. In his poem, Gunter Grass was speaking for them and for the future of the planet
ariadna
April 13, 2012 at 3:05 am
Great post! Says it all.
searching
April 13, 2012 at 1:20 am
Great comment Jeffrey.
“Should Yaoz-Kest not be censured at every level of Israeli society for his disgusting response to Grass—and I don’t expect him to be–
it will be further proof that he was writing in Israel’s name”.
I was also thinking: What kind of God do they really worship?.
The one ,I was told and tought about ,was all about Love, Forgiving , Mercy, Humbleness etc.:
“If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but DO NOT have love, I am NOTHING.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing…”
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13&version=NIV
What kind of G-d would tell its people to kill,humiliate, destroy, unforgive, to annihilate the whole globe??
It makes me wonder??
God of Underworld???