Talks in Freiburg
by Gilad Atzmon
Friday, August 3rd, 2012
These two talks, one by Professor Norton Mezvinsky and one by Gilad Atzmon, took place in Freiburg, Germany in the same cathedral that hosted the great Martin Heidegger
Professor Norton Mezvinsky
Gilad Atzmon
Posted by Gilad Atzmon
on August 3, 2012. Filed under Activism,Ideology,Jewish Matters,Palestine,Uncategorised.
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37 Responses to Talks in Freiburg
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Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 11:09 am
I still have admiration for Gilad but I am getting impatient with his failure to evolve. His criticism of jewish identity politics, Israel and jewish power was good in a minor way in its time but he must now move on to the real problem that faces the world: the global domination campaign of the shias, those fake muslims whose aim is to slaughter sunnis prior to taking control of the whole globe. They inundate the alternative media with lies, which the MSM has a hard time combating.
There have been victories for the cause of justice and freedom in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, and soon, one hopes, in Syria and also Lebanon.
Nevertheless blood-thirsty Syrian agents are everywhere with their poisonous propaganda that has managed to divert people’s attention to side issues of Palestine –one that can only be solved by the annihilation of shias.
Shia propagandists have even managed to create sectarian conflicts among jews, some of whom are unable to perceive that the threat comes not from within, from the so-called self-hating jews, but from shias.
Gilad is privileged to have among his friends clear-eyed guides who can help him: Laura Stuart is one, who has brought renown and a huge global readership to deLiberation through her tireless, cogent arguments on the true Islam. In some quarters she is even admiringly called Laura I-Am-Islam Stuart due to her profound and unassailable Islam scholarship.
The readers of deLiberation–the huge and growing number– are waiting to hear you are on the right path, Gilad.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 11:16 am
Instead of talking about sectarian division why not tell the truth and be clear, the issue here is about those who support oppression and dictatorship and those who do not.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 11:24 am
Simply because it isn’t true, especially when viewed from a non-sectarian standpoint.
The idea that everyone but you and Khalid supports oppression and dictatorship might be your truth. It is no-one else’s. This is exactly how Aaronovitch and Cohen behaved before the invasion of Iraq.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 11:30 am
It is true though, because if you believe in human rights and justice then you have to believe in human rights and justice for all.
The issue for the Syrians was getting rid of a dictator and it still is.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 11:36 am
“human rights and justice for all” –unless you give the words a meaning only you and K3.5 Posters are privy to — is incompatible with hatred against any group/religion as you display.
It is a poorly built façade that crumbles with every post in which either of you rails against those who don;t follow your personal understanding of Islam (in your case a curious mixture of self-styled muslim chutzpah).
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 11:37 am
I can believe that a person follows a deviated religion without hating them and without the need to believe that they are not entitled to human rights and justice.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 11:47 am
Impossible to tell when a person is consciously a hypocrite and when not. You may not realize how you sound, which would be beneficial to you.
A person who follows what you call a “deviated religion” is also, as you said elsewhere, one who commits “the greatest sin” so I shudder to think what you, a passionate advocate of chopping the hands of thieves, would consider “justice” for those committing the greatest sin.
The same “justice” that you cheered in Libya.
Yet you tell yourself and others that you “don’t hate them.” To you, that may be true but can’t you see that you are unable to convince ANYONE? Maybe it is because we are “Syrian agents.”
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 11:56 am
The hudud in Islam is from Allah s.w.t. so it is divine law and not something that I decide upon.
You cannot related this to the situation in countries not governed by Islam.
So you try to claim hatred for Shia etc etc but I have not said anything to let anyone believe that shia and not entitled to human rights and justice.
You want to mix up hatred for a deviation in religious belief with hatred of the people which is plainly wrong.
I have read KA saying on comments that he supported NasrAllah during the Lebanon conflict. This is true of myself, I marched with my son many times at the protests so if we hated Shia we would not have done that. We are against the support of NasrAllah for a dictator who is killing his people.
You sound like the zionists when they claim the Muslims want to kill all Jews and all the Christians are fleeing the Middle East.
So you can be selective about who you believe are entitled to human rights depending which way the zionist wind is blowing but I can’t.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 12:08 pm
“I marched with my son”
Ah, why didn’t you say so from the beginning? That was the touch that I needed to humanize you… see you as selfless, dedicated, dragging the child with you because you needed to be there, to fight for justice and, after all, it only follows, it makes you right!
One remark related to your pious references to your personal understanding of Islam:
It seems to escape you entirely is that there are two kinds of posters on this side who don’t take your opinions seriously:
–muslims who know you talk nonsense and worse, tendentious nonsense and laugh at your invocations of Islam “scholars”
– non-muslims who are not really interested in studying Islam but if they were, you would be the last minus one person they would trust to learn it from. So you might, who knows, consider piping down on that.
That you support a hateful sectarianism is not a matter of doubt among either group, and that makes all posters other than you and K3.5 Posters.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 12:15 pm
“You sound like the zionists…”
You intend this as insult but I don’t see why. Zionists are not a problem to you, just a nuisance.
Didn’t you complain that you are tired of this and other sites where the focus is on self-obsessed jews and that all this talk of zionism and jewish power takes attention away from the real problem?
Gilad has his qualities –first of all he is “macho,” right? But he just doesn’t get it–so talk to him. A new book may be in order:
“Who? The Murdering Shias, That’s Who!”
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 11:50 am
“The issue for the Syrians was getting rid of a dictator and it still is.”
Except for those Syrians who are pro-Assad!
The issue for the Egyptians was getting rid of a dictator and now they are in a position where they have an incomplete revolution, and the wishes of the slight majority who voted for the MB rather than the regime are thwarted by Tantawi and his thugs.
And, however much you want to ignore it, the Syrian revolution has undoubtedly been hijacked by outside forces, who appear to be working closely with the Americans. The Syrian opposition is no longer united. And the fall of Assad is unlikely to lead to “human rights and justice for all”.
What seems so plain to see is that you and Khalid are echoing the very same lop-sided propaganda that is flowing from Israel and America. And unsurprisingly it isn’t going down well.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 12:07 pm
The Syrians who are pro Assad are a minority and getting less after he turned his guns on his own people. Assad has never had free and fair elections.
I have never ever denied that outside forces have hijacked the revolution rather it is you and some others on here who can only talk about USA Israel hijacking it whilst plainly there are other players who hijacked it as well and all of them have their own interests.
I remind you again that I wrote about exactly that on this site back in february of this year so I am not unaware.
China has a horrendous history of human rights abuses – China doesn’t even allow Muslims to fast in Ramadan.
Russia has killed thousands of Muslims
The USA ditto
Israel ditto
UK ditto
France ditto plus the niqab ban
Turkey supposed Islamic country but headscarf is banned
Saudi – leaders corrupt
etc etc etc
Yet I get zio troll blah blah blah do you or anyone here really believe that I support the USA or Israel? USA is killing Muslims in Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan and Afghanistan yet supposedly I am on their side. Does that sound reasonable to you?
I can be against Assad without being pro anything except Islam.
I support only Islam.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 12:24 pm
“he turned his guns on his own people”
Remember what Khalid spammed across threads last night?
“The thuggish regime in Syria this evening slaughtered 17 Palestinians and injured 66 in the Yarmuk refugee camp near Damascus.”
And yet, as I pointed out, the Syrian Observatory which is an one man anti-Assad propaganda outfit, based in the UK, reported that the rebels began the battle by targeting military posts with RPGs.
And you still haven’t given me the name of a regime that wouldn’t use force when its military was attacked.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 12:40 pm
It did not start out as an armed uprising. Assads father killed thousands too.
You have to take into consideration years of background, the suppression and oppression of freedoms in Syria. All Arab dictators are the same each one has followed the same pattern exactly.
Actually there is a video from Yarmouk yesterday if you search for it. Assad’s forces fired shells into civilian areas, the dead bodies of the unarmed civilians you can clearly see on the streets where they were walking. which is not the same as an armed uprising taking on the army.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 12:54 pm
“It did not start out as an armed uprising.”
No, but it soon became one – a fact which was hidden by the propagandists
“Assads father killed thousands too.”
Yes Laura, we know. Should we just kill everyone in the family now?
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Should “we” kill everyone in the family.
We haven’t killed anyone.
I hope Assad is soon gone and that the Syrians can be free.
The victory over oppression and injustice is not in the hands of Bush Blair NasrAllah Al Saud etc.
Israeli leaders will not feel any safer without Assad.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 1:07 pm
“I hope Assad is soon gone and that the Syrians can be free.”
Just like the Libyans, about whose happiness we know because you have friends who tell you. A worthy goal for which it is worth slaughtering them, especially if they are shias, whom you don’t hate, however, you only hate their ‘greatest sin.’.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 1:10 pm
“I hope Assad is soon gone and that the Syrians can be free.”
I’m reading the Makram Khoury article, and it does raise this question: – What exactly do you mean by “free”?
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 1:24 pm
Exactly Adriana, in fact I was talking to a Libyan yesterday who used to be a contributor on this site but left because of the prevailing Syrian views. I was also talking to one of my female Libyan friends who is hoping to return there soon, her husband is already there. I have many Libyan friends, ones who were exiled and ones who returned there years ago and all without exception report that they are so happy – they cannot believe the freedom they have now – before they dared not utter Gaddafis name. They just voted recently in peaceful elections for a wide range of representatives including many women.
So what do you want to say about Libya?
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 1:39 pm
“It did not start out as an armed uprising. Assads father killed thousands too.”
I prefer Makram Khoury-Machool’s take on it:
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 1:45 pm
And this Laura, is exactly the same propaganda that you and Khalid push ad nauseum here.
Jonathon Blakeley
August 3, 2012 at 1:52 pm
exactly Roy and we are all fed up with it!
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 12:49 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORxxuYV2TM&list=UUtFA2Egzr-EL7Zy7JzGuaag
Yarmouk camp yesterday
Jonathon Blakeley
August 3, 2012 at 1:47 pm
@ Laura ( I am Islam ) Stuart
its not the issue at all, you are just so stuck in a groove. The issue is up to Syria not you to decide what is right for them.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 11:29 am
What a splendid idea!
Why don’t you take ti up chop-chop with K 3.5 Posters who supports oppression and the occupation of Palestine. He said he’d rather live under Israeli occupation that under the shias. That has the rancid fumes of sectarianism, doesn’it?
Why don’t you mull on it yourself some. Maybe it will lessen your gripe about (approximate quote) jews obsessed with themselves and jewish power talk taking attention away from the real conflict of our times: the hated shias threatening the world.
Or… maybe not. You seem like a dame of dam’ durable convictions, in which case you need to convince Gilad to stop wasting his time. Will he need to convert first? He may wrote a new book, abjuring his previous nugatory concepts: “What I learned from Laura.”
etominusipi
August 3, 2012 at 1:13 pm
we are the knights who say “Ni!“
at the level of individual humans true identity has an inner core and an outward expression. there is also false identity. this has no inner core, but its strength lies in the coercive power of various agencies in the sociocultural environment.
all our externalisation of who we are must take place via a medium conforming to the accidents of time, place, culture, genetics and so forth. two obvious examples are our gender and our mother tongue.
it is quite possible for the false external identity to entirely stifle the expression of the inner identity – in which case the inner core does not develop, and may eventually shrivel and die, if it receives no nutrition at all from the expression of compassion, selfless joy, and truthfulness.
this possibility seems greatly facilitated in ‘the modern world’, due to two factors: the weakening of people’s roots in local communities and their traditions, and the proliferation of available labels.
self-labelling, both by words and actions, can serve as a potent basis for cohesion amongst groups of people with undeveloped cores. one potential danger is illustrated in this clip (it’s mercifully short – only a minute or so)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIV4poUZAQo
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Ok Jonathon I will reply at the bottom of the thread since it gets increasingly tedious to try and find your post.
The Syrian people have decided and they did decide.
The idea that I will decide is nonsensical.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 8:18 pm
“The idea that I will decide is nonsensical.”
And yet you said “I want Assda gone”!
Do you often hear voices? Is there another Laura who sometimes writes your posts, just like K3.5 Posters has his amanuenses? If there is more than one Laura, which of them has problems with basic English grammar? As a person who had to study to acquire English I am particularly irritated with that. Which Laura is it?
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 1:56 pm
@Roy I can only answer for myself but I have not claimed that there is not violence on both sides.
There is a difference though in shelling civilian areas.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 2:15 pm
“There is a difference though in shelling civilian areas.”
So we’ve been told. Remind us what it is please! In particular, bearing in mind that it is an easily anticipated response, explain why the ‘rebels’ insist on putting civilians at risk please.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 4:07 pm
What am I now a military tactician?
If I had to guess I would say that an armed uprising with light weapons use guerilla warfare tactics.
But how is all of this relevant?
I am not surprised that Kofi Annan resigned since Assad stood by zero of his promises.
So what next?
The future isn’t looking too bright for Assad even if he does cling on to power.
Roy Bard
August 3, 2012 at 4:40 pm
What am I now a military tactician?”
You keep taking about the effect – yet you have nothing to say about the cause.
If my neighbour’s dog eats one of my kids, I don’t throw more of them in to prove that it eats kids
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 4:46 pm
We are not even half way through the summer hols and you are thinking about feeding your kids to the neighbours dog!
Ariadna Theokopoulos
August 3, 2012 at 8:14 pm
Now THAT’s the kind of intelligent comment I expect from you and would welcome any day over the ramblings about what you understand your personal Allah to want and what we all need to hear from no other source but you and K3.5 Posters.
Laura Stuart
August 3, 2012 at 1:58 pm
So Jonathon “we are all fed up with it” – Blakeley perhaps you should censor both content on the site to only include the kind of propaganda you prefer and also ban the commentators who do not agree with your views.
Jonathon Blakeley
August 3, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Matters are in hand to restrict people who abuse the comments with spam
who_me
August 3, 2012 at 7:55 pm
laura stuart has several times now alluded to other comment writers here as being anti-semitic on dubious grounds. but in comparison to bigoted crap she daily writes about shiite muslims, nobody on this site comes even close to her level of prejudice, in their writing of jewish people. and compared to what khalid writes (which she encourages and fully backs) about shiites, there is no comparison at all. the level of hypocrisy she exhibits is amazing. if people wrote about jews (or any group) the way these two write about shiites, the comments would get pulled (i’ve seen 1 or 2 comments against jews of that nature pulled from here in the past).