Paul Eisen speaks with Gilad Atzmon
by the Editor
Sunday, April 29th, 2012
Gilad Atzmon & Paul Eisen
An insightful conversation between Gilad Atzmon and Paul Eisen. It takes a deep look into their minds and the troublesome relationship they hold with ‘Jewish identity politics’, ‘Jewish ideology’,'Jewish power’ and Jewish history alongside their prolonged intellectual and political activism.
by Tali Atzmon
Posted by the Editor
on April 29, 2012. Filed under Activism,Palestine.
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105 Responses to Paul Eisen speaks with Gilad Atzmon
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Hamassacre
April 30, 2012 at 9:49 am
Eisen speaks to Atzmon. That should be fascinating:
“I don’t believe the Holocaust happened”.
“No, neither do I”.
“Damn Jews”.
“Yeah, they’re disgusting, aren’t they?”
“Vermin”.
“Too right”.
“Fancy a pint?”
“OK”.
Roy Bard
April 30, 2012 at 11:46 am
Hey Hammascre – sadly having watched the video I couldn’t identify any of your quotes. Rather I watched a rather more complex discussion than you suggest.
Perhaps its just that I’m incapable of watching a video correctly, so it would help me you could identify where in the video these points are made.
For example at about 33 M 57 S Paul Eisen says: “Now I know what needs to be done. I’m losing my fear”
So, if you could just highlight where the statements you quote are made, I can go and listen to them for myself. Maybe I’ll learn to watch videos more objectively in the future.
Thanks in advance……
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 1:17 pm
Well done. Don’t listen to critics, they don’t understand the fine points of what they maliciously call hasbara.
I give you the Wiesel Award for expressing Truth®–”that which is not accurate but it is declared ‘factually’ true if it expresses the feelings it evokes in YOU.
Chester
April 30, 2012 at 10:28 am
This is why I believe in freedom of speech.
Zionists like Hamassacre have every right to reveal their ignorance, paranoia and arrogance with leaden satire.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 1:26 pm
Yes and … no.
I think of this as a beautiful park, well maintained, where everybody has the freedom to get up on a soapbox and express his view, but it still has some rules to ensure the park can be enjoyed by all. Those who repeatedly raise their hind legs to pee on bushes and who fling mud at the speakers should eventually be escorted out.
Chester
April 30, 2012 at 3:02 pm
I agree, in fact I made the same point on another part of the park that “Hamassacre” had defecated on.
I can appreciate that it is tough being the keeper of a beautiful park when there are feral dogs running around uncontrolled.
Nevertheless, I think it is important that Zionists be given every opportunity to reveal their true character.
Paul Eisen
May 1, 2012 at 5:17 am
But I’ve met many Zionists over the years who seem to have a very good character and many anti-Zionits who seem to have horrible characters. So what’s going on?
Chester
May 1, 2012 at 2:10 pm
True, Paul. I have also met fascists who have good characters.
They have good characters in spite of their fascism and/or Zionism, not because of it.
In real life Hamassacre might very well be charm personified. Who knows? But for the time being all we have to go on is a very unpleasant post, which is nevertheless fairly typical for a Zionist troll.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I have to disagree. Personal charm (although I have a very hard time imagining that in any other context some of the hecklers we have and have had here can possibly be a charming person) is NOT character.
A test of character is not like the Special Olympics where the handicapped compete to show what they can do despite their limitations. There was a poem by Carl Sandburg that I vaguely remember. I won’t stop to look it up now but it may have been called something like The Executioner or the Hangman in which he tries to imagine the professional killer’s day, going home after “work” behaving like a normal person.
What the hell is a Nazi with character? Ariel Sharon… what a great “character”: strength of purpose, indomitable dedication… love for his sons…
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 3:03 pm
I do have to make–not so much of an exception but a specification:
It is possible to be a zionist or a fascist and be a person of good character as long as you are deceived/UNINFORMED.
A person of true character, however, and of even moderate intelligence, eventually finds his way to the truth and then abandons zionism/fascism, etc.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 2:48 pm
I think we need to define the terms “zionist” and “of good character.”
Terminology purists like you and Gilad seem to give specific connotations to the term “zionist” and make fine distinctions that escape most of the rest of us.
Good character, I would hope, means humanistic ethical thinking and behavior without exceptions being made for “blind spots,” as is the case with “progressives” who advocate tirelessly for human rights everywhere and for everybody but when it comes to Israel hasten to point out the “complexities” of the situation. They may be good and loyal friends, never engage in nefarious business practices, love their families and their dogs.
To me a zionist is the person who answers “YES” to at least four crucial questions:
1. Does Israel (qua Israel) have a right to exist?
[No state has an intrinsic right to exist. To make an exception for Israel based on "historical" reasons related to the suffering of the people who came from other countries and continents is to be a zionist.]
2. Is a State for Jews in Palestine compatible with democracy?
[I specify in Palestine because I can conceive of a democratic state for Jews if it had been set up on an uninhabited tract of land, say.. purchased from Uganda as was one of the initial intentions, and from the beginning the all-Jews state had set up a clear policy of restricting immigration to Jews. You can have a democratic state for blondes in the same way but necessarily on a previously uninhabited land.]
Some make a distinction between “early” and latter-day zionists and depict the former as starry-eyed pioneers animated by high ideals. Chomsky talks about the early zionists and specifically about the “anti-zionists” among them, of whom he claims he was one, defining them as kibbutzim who wanted to build a better society without a state and were dismayed when the state of Israel was officially announced. That is rank hypocrisy glossing the fact that the “better society” began with waves of mass migration and colonization combined with aggressive attacks and massacres of the local population.
That is not “anti-zionism” to me but a sophistry around the concept of “state” meant to obfuscate.]
3. Is criticizing Israel, going so far as advocating the dismantling of ‘the state for jews,’ tantamount to anti-semitism?
4. Is criticizing Jews* (whether they call themselves “zionists,” “zionists for peace,” or anti-zionists”) tantamount to anti-semitism?
[* insofar as the criticism targets symptoms of group behavior evincing beliefs in tribal supremacy, special entitlement based on "unique suffering," racism and intolerance to non-Jews.]
It may seem that this is unrelated to the person’s attitude towards Israel but it is not.I have never met, nor do I think there is, a person who answers YES to Q#4 without being a supporter of Israel, and answering YES to Q#1.
Paul Eisen
May 1, 2012 at 5:57 pm
There are a lot of things to think about here but one thing that needs to be said is that it’s clear that the people who so oppress us are by no means always Zionists.
My experience has been that the very worst are self-proclaimed anti-Zionists. And they are truly anti-Zionist – they completely and utterly oppose Jewish nationalism and the notion of an openly Jewish political grouping. (Of course, they wield their Jewish power in all kinds of other ways)
So isn’t it time to end this Zionist / anti-Zionist nonsense once and for all?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 11:11 pm
We need new terms then. Suggestions? definitions?
Paul Eisen
May 2, 2012 at 4:49 pm
Well, it seems to me that it’s Jewish supremacists who are the problem – and they seem to come in all kinds of guises and certainly as both Zionists and anti-Zionists.
aemathisphd
May 1, 2012 at 7:38 pm
(My account has not been deleted, so I’m responding to this post.)
This is perhaps the single most informative post I’ve seen from Ariadna, as it provides a constructive working definition of Zionism. I’ll respond to the questions thus:
1. Israel has no more right to exist than any other state; thus, given the constraints of the question, my answer is NO.
2. In some sense, I think the question is confusing. If the sense of “state for Jews” is the same sense as a state in which Jews are held superior to other groups in that state, then my answer is NO.
3. This one is a tad simplistic, as I would argue that other factors would need to be considered. I don’t think Neturey Karta’s criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic, but I do think Ernst Zündel’s is. But in and of itself, and taking no other points under considering, my answer to this one is NO.
4. Again a little simplistic, as again, it depends on who is doing the criticizing and why. Thankfully, Ariadna provided some explanation on this one: “insofar as the criticism targets symptoms of group behavior evincing beliefs in tribal supremacy, special entitlement based on ‘unique suffering,’ racism and intolerance to non-Jews.”
It’s a complicated argument, to say the least. Tribal supremacy, racism, and intolerance are never good or acceptable, no matter whether it’s Jews against non-Jews, non-Jews against non-Jews, Jews against Jews, or non-Jews against Jews.
I think that the suffering of the Jewish people has been unique in some ways and not unique in others, and I’ve said as much. I could say the same things about any other demographic group against whom there has been suffering inflicted, so I don’t know what this proves one way or the other. Rather, I think it would have to be judged on the basis of the outcome of this “entitled” based on “unique” suffering. In the case of Israel, I think it’s been almost uniformly negative.
So all of that being said, criticizing individual Jews or subgroups of the Jewish people (the Orthodox, the Zionists, the anti-Zionists, the Jewish Bund, the Likud, etc.) isn’t anti-Semitic per se. Criticizing “the Jews” in a monolithic manner might not be anti-Semitic, but experience has told me that it usually is.
No single Jew should be immune from criticism. No single Jewish group should be immune from criticism. But criticisms of entire groups of people, without qualifying statements, should be interpreted for what they are — evidence of intolerance. That goes for what some Jews might say about non-Jews, obviously.
So, finally, my answer to Ariadna’s #4 would have to be a qualified MAYBE.
How’d I do?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 8:34 pm
Edward Gorey knew you, didn’t he? This is you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0i9m5frKHM
That’s all I have to say to you. I never developed a yen for root canals.
aemathisphd
May 1, 2012 at 10:27 pm
Edward Gorey. Didn’t he write The Ghastlycrumb Tinies?
Jonathon Blakeley
May 1, 2012 at 9:25 pm
Everyone should be up for criticism, but crass criticism in a “monolithic manner” of ethnic groups is racism.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 1, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Agreed!
searching
May 2, 2012 at 12:30 am
There were many high -rank Nazi officers,
who were very good husbands and fathers,
who were good, loyal comrades, who had quite sophisticaed taste in music, art, food. etc.
And then…they were able to kill, with cold blood, innocent children women, old people etc.
Yes , there are a lot of “good” people in the world, but those “good people” ,when given a chance, when the right opportunity comes
may become more or less willing servants of the Evil. One maybe a so -called “good person”, but if he supports/defends/serves intentionally, wholeheartedly Evil then,
sorry Gregory ,but he ain’t that good.
We all make our choices everyday.
We all are brought up with certain predjudices/ideologies etc.
But then we grow up, and as adults we have to start making our choices. If I serve/support a person, an ideology, a system that is opressive, that humiliates, persecutes, kills, murders ,destroys intentionally other people , if I put my hand, my mind/heart/soul into it , then I am not a such “great/good “person after all.
Nobody has a right to abuse/destroy innocent. powerles people.
Anybody who does it or supports the system that does it, is not a “good person”.
I don’t want to judge or condemn anybody.
It is not my role or place. I will be judged as well, and I hope I will never intentionally/willingy cause a harm to another innocent person.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 2:27 pm
This is a thought-provoking, intelligent and moving (to me) dialog on the issue of Jewish identity between two people who do not agree on everything but are both profound thinkers and true humanists.
It reminded me of another thought-provoking exchange I had very many years ago with a Jewish friend. He was a third-generation American Jew, a distinguished academician and highly successful physician liked and admired by his colleagues and students and adored (no exaggeration) by his patients AND by all the nurses he worked with (not a small thing–they know physicians better than anyone).
I had asked him “What does it mean and what does it feel like for you to be a Jew?” He thought about it and said the best way to put it was to say that if he were to find himself in a roomful of colleagues and friends (Jews and non-Jews) with whom he shared professional and intellectual interests, a general background, political views and life-style he would feel just fine but deep down he would always be “on guard,” alert. On the other hand imagining himself in a roomful of unknown Jews, be they “shmucks” he said smiling, with whom he had nothing else in common he would be totally relaxed.
Where does this fear come from?–I asked. Have you personally experienced persecution, anti-semitism at Harvard? He said he thought it came from knowledge of history that he had received in his upbringing.
Inculcated FEAR and DISTRUST.
If fear and distrust can be taken out then a portion of the “specialness” is taken out as well. What’s left of being a Jew? Only the folkloric bits and culinary quirks?
Gilad Atzmon
May 1, 2012 at 12:14 am
Hello Ariandna, my interpretation is pretty simple.
What we see here is 2 typical Jewish cultural symptoms.
1. Pre Traumatic Stress Disorder-Jews are occasionally tormented by a phantasmic horrific scenario. I always refer to the old Jewish joke.. A 19th century Jewish telegram-’get worried, details to follow’..
2. projection. people tend to project their symptoms onto others.
These 2 psychological dynamics are common. The Brits military elite is tormented by the phantasy of destruction ahead of the 2012 Olympic games. What we see here is a severe form of ‘pre TSD’ and ‘projection’. Israel attitude towards Iran is again the outcome of pre TSD and heavy projection.
Politics of fear integrates these 2 elements into practice. It is no wonder why Neocons are Zionists..
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 1:03 am
Hi Gilad,
Agreed with one important distinction:
The Pre-TSD is a symptom of the masses NOT shared by the real decision makers, the puppet masters who intentionally exploit and whip it up among their following to ensure support for their wars of dominations and internal policies of suppression of dissent.
The leadership in Israel knows very well that Iran does not pose a threat to Israel UNLESS attacked first; they are well informed.
Just as the “security” measures (read police state measures like the shredding if the Bill of Rights, intrusive surveillance, etc) introduced after 9/11 in the US by the very keepers of the secrets of the coup (that’s what it really was) are not a result of fear.
If pre-TSD was prevalent at the top as well you might see an attempt to calm the public rather than scare the daylights out of them. You would not see such a blatant fear-mongering propaganda.
searching
May 2, 2012 at 1:18 am
This irrational fear is needed to keep people in order, in check. To control them.
It’s like a dominat/abusive parent ,
who instills a fear of the world and other people in a child, so he/she can take over total control of the child. Very diabolical endeavour. If successful it will break the child forever, and he/she will be afraid of its own shadow.
Instilling irrational fear is a very vicious way to control/to play with, a collective psyche of societies.
So here we have a fear that is being implanted in people’s minds, day and night thanks to the MSmedia and politicians, and then we have a solution.
Big Brother will take care of you.
Just trust him my friend.
We are here to help you.
Just don’t leave the cage that we are trying to put you.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 3:37 am
Two Questions:
A. If
1. the problem with Jewish group behavior arises when Jews celebrate the symptoms of their cultural identity at the expense of others
and if
2. such symptoms (e.g., belief in their supremacy) can ONLY be manifested at the expense of others
and if
3. one cannot be a Jew outside of/bereft of the Jewish cultural identity
then what kind of a Jew can you be to be able to “play nicely with others”? Perhaps only Naturei Karta because they don’t play at all…
What do we say to Jews? Be nice, but don’t be too Jewish?….
B. I understand now that “zionist” is a circumscribed term, not to be used in the generic fashion we have been slinging it around.
What shall we call the Jews (and some non-Jews who support them) constituted in what Petras calls the ZPC, who are responsible for today’s world hurtling towards disaster:
JP-ists (Jewish Power adepts)?
Gilad Atzmon
May 3, 2012 at 1:33 am
A.3 should be re-articulated (i suggest): one cannot ‘be considered Jewish’ outside of/bereft of the Jewish cultural identity
then what kind of a Jew can you be to be able to “play nicely with others”?
G: Indeed a big question, this is why I am critical of J identity politics. To be nice for real is to drift away from choseness.
Hence, I accept your verdict re Naturei Karta..Jewish orthodoxy is indeed meaningful and genuine.
B. I understand now that “zionist” is a circumscribed term, not to be used in the generic fashion we have been slinging it around.
What shall we call the Jews (and some non-Jews who support them) constituted in what Petras calls the ZPC, who are responsible for today’s world hurtling towards disaster:
JP-ists (Jewish Power adepts)?
G: A tribalist or a racially driven subject
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 3, 2012 at 2:29 am
Thank you, Gilad. A thoughtful and truly enlightening reply.
searching
April 30, 2012 at 6:23 pm
it is not only about fear and distrut.
It is more about the desire to control the rest of not-so-chosen populations, and ability to use all loathsome, the lowest possible moves/tactics to achieve this goal.
There is nothing that stops the Power/Jewish/Elite from implementing the most demonical methods to reach their final, long planned target.
Fear and distrust is one of the ways to keep a herd in order and loyal to each other.
Gilad Atzmon
May 1, 2012 at 12:17 am
I think that what we see as an attempt to control is the direct outcome of fear. I guess that the attempt to silence Paul, myself and many others is the direct outcome of fear. What we say is clearly simple and obvious to anyone who is willing to listen. But is we are correct, then the entire Pls solidarity discourse is on a wrong track for decades..
searching
May 1, 2012 at 12:45 am
I guess it’s hard to argue between interconnection of fear and control.
Which causes what. Is a control outcome of fear, or fear is an outcome of a control?
For example: an abusive, controlling husband does the abuse and control of his wife partially out of fear ,( she may leave him when given a chance), partially out of the sickness of his chracter ,( he just needs to have a victim that he may torment and control).
And then, there is a fear of a real, imminent danger, which is a normal and justified reaction versus fear that is instilled in us , our subconscious mind that is not tangible , that is very irrational, but equally paralyzing, mind/soul numbing.
Some call it phobia. And this phobia is very well played on the Israeli/Jewish population. For ages. It is also very well played by media-politcal outlets in so-called “war on terror”.
Gilad Atzmon
May 1, 2012 at 7:33 pm
It is all pretty simple, we are dealing with collective psychosis …
Loren Franklin
May 1, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Well, that implies an extremely low threshold for diagnosing psychosis. Psychosis is a detachment from reality that often includes hallucinations, and delusions which generally far exceed any tribal mindset, or tribal victim-mythologies. All humans deal with fears and phobias to one degree or another, without being psychotic.
Jonathon Blakeley
May 1, 2012 at 9:15 pm
There is that definition – Neurosis is when you think crazy stuff and you think I am crazy.
Psychosis is when you don’t think you are crazy, you believe the crazy thoughts.
It’s the one’s that don’t think they are mad, they are generally the ones to worry about.
searching
May 2, 2012 at 12:13 am
but… where are the roots/the source of this illness called the “collective psychosis”??
Or maybe it really doesn’t matter since nobody of the chosen-ones wants to deal with the symptoms of it, let alone dig into the source.
In a way, how can we expect that a delluded one will have enough ability and power to target his own dellusion?? Is it even possible?? Looking at the recent call of Dershowitz and the rest of the Sanhedryn,
the deluded ones want the rest own the world to believe that those who oppose them are the real problem.
And….some believe them.
How can we beat that?
Loren Franklin
May 2, 2012 at 6:00 pm
There is no illness called “collective psychosis.” Psychosis is mental illness experienced by individuals; and it is no more of a joking matter than is cancer, MS, or AIDS. People do not chose to be psychotic: they do not make a choice to be mentally ill: it happens to them without their ability it fend it off. People who experience psychosis can be very much aware that they are feeling psychotic, and are having psychotic thoughts, and seeing and hearing things that don’t, or can’t actually exist. While many psychotic people may not know they are mentally ill, they most certainly are in a state of extreme distress.
People can be deluded: groups can and do experience mass delusion, and not be psychotic. Delusion is not mental illness, as a person can chose not to be deluded. People can be evil, and not be psychotic. Evil is not a mental illness, it is often a lack of empathy toward others, and a disregard for their welfare. People can chose not to be evil.
Neurosis is not psychosis, a person can be neurotic, and not experience a break from reality that constitutes psychosis. Zionism is not psychosis, it is an ideology: ideologies are not mental illnesses, regardless of the evil they may spawn. To be a Jew, is to be a human being. Jews didn’t invent the evils we suffer through, and neither did Zionists. Every bit of evil we know today was around long before there was a line drawn between Jews and Gentiles. Using Jews a scape-goats for all the ills of the world, and calling them psychotic, is a childish game of projecting mankind’s ills onto them.
searching
May 2, 2012 at 6:26 pm
Psychosis– A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and LOSS OF CONTACT with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.
You are correct. The term “Psychosis” is usually used to describe a certain mental illness that individuals may suffer.
Of course nobody “chooses” to be mentally ill, and nobody here makes fun of it,so… relax a bit.
But there is , rather a loose term ,called social/colective psychosis.
It refers to a group that upon losing a contact with so-called reality , manages to alienate itself from the rest of humankind, fuels all sort of delusions on its members, and on top of it, is very agressive to those who don’t share their views.
Israel actions directed at their own people, and their neighbours fit all this criteria.
It is not only collective psychosis.
It is a collective psychosis with a murderous streak in it. A very dangerous form of social psychosis.
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 8:12 pm
It isn’t as if Gilad invented the term. Here’s an American using it to descibe their own society:
It was also used unapologetically by Khaled Amayreh who argues that:
Joel Fishman in his reading of Lev Grinberg’s plea for Europe and the UN to intervene to stop the slow genocide of Palestinians offers us this explanation:
Gilad has used the term often before and explains it well here
I think that people can be induced into Drinking the Kool-Aid and that the struggle Paul describes with his Jewishness is indicative of a socialisation process that leaves people pretty damaged. It may help us understand why the Dersh is currently saying that dissident Jews are the greatest threat to the zionist project. At the very least we should be wondering why so many Jews are so virulently antagonistic to Jewishness in its current form.
Paul Eisen
May 2, 2012 at 8:37 pm
I suppose in my case it’s partially because i feel so bitterly let down.
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 8:40 pm
Can you elaborate? I’m left wondering in what way, and by whom. Cheers
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 8:38 pm
And rather amusingly, here’s a Jerusalem Post article applying the term ‘collective psychosis’ to the so-called Israeli Left*
Symptoms of collective psychosis
Despite all this mean-spirited depreciation – perhaps partially because of it – Beck’s visit generated a hugely important by-product.
The reaction to his overtly pro-Israel enterprise exposed in the most blatant manner the psychotic nature of the Israeli Left as a socio-political collective, that demented segment of society that masquerades as the nation’s “intellectual elite.”
Psychotic? Demented? Strong words, perhaps, but the diagnosis is both appropriate and demonstrably verifiable. Indeed, were a private individual to exhibit the behavioral patterns characteristic of the so-called intelligentsia of the Left, he would undoubtedly be certified for serious mental disorder and declared a danger to himself and his surroundings.
Consider the following widely accepted definitions of psychiatric concepts:
• Psychosis: Mental illness involving gross disorder of perception…which causes the subject to lose touch with external reality.
• Psychotic symptom: A symptom which causes a misinterpretation of reality, typically hallucinations; delusional belief.
• Hallucination: A perception experienced in the absence of an external stimulus to the sense organs.
• Delusion: A belief that is firmly held despite compelling evidence to the contrary.
Little effort is required to identify a remarkably close correlation between the collective behavior of the Israeli Left and these symptoms. It would take a very thick tome to document all cases, so we confine ourselves to representative examples.
* There is no Israeli Left
but it does remind me of a joke I heard in Israel:
Q: What’s the difference between the Israeil Right and the Israeli Left.
A: The Israeli Right want Palestinians to be put onto coaches and transported to Jordan. The Israeli left want the coaches to be air-conditioned…..
Gilad Atzmon
April 30, 2012 at 10:57 pm
I have great respect to Paul, and seeing him finding his way to the centre of the discourse and activism is great news for all of us…
searching
May 1, 2012 at 12:50 am
“Warriors take chances. Like everyone else, they fear failing, but they refuse to let fear control them.”
Ancient Samurai saying
Gilad Atzmon
May 1, 2012 at 7:32 pm
I agree, we lost our fear,, and we ll win..
searching
May 2, 2012 at 1:25 am
I like your optimism.
A song for the Boss.
I love it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bAULNrcOt8&feature=related
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 9:33 pm
Do you speak Russian? What does “Uma ” (transliterated in Roman alph) mean? I saw it in the title of her next song on youtube.
searching
May 3, 2012 at 12:03 am
I used to know Russian very well.
Since I haven’t used it for ages, it has gotten very,very rusty rusty.
“Uma” means mind. The title of teh song that you mentioned means “from the great mind”. I love the way Russian songs sound. They soothe/calm my mind
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 12:11 am
I like this one:
Это есть наш последний
И решительный бой.
С Интернационалом
Воспрянет род людской!
searching
May 3, 2012 at 12:26 am
no, I was thinking more along those lines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=X91yW6uajKo&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ni_MCiNsFs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tzHfZRNTNo&feature=related
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 3, 2012 at 12:28 am
I only know the alphabet now, a few words and a few fragments of poems, having tried to learn it a few centuries ago (or so it feels).
I would have loved to be able to read Russian literature in the original but it’s too late now. I used to whistle the melody of the Volga barge pullers’ song (ei,oohnem!) when I was walking my dog. She liked the rhythm….
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 12:31 am
It’s never too late. I learned Yiddish in my forties. German in my thirties.
searching
May 3, 2012 at 12:40 am
I guess now it’s time for Chinese?
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 12:47 am
Depends on how bad the economy gets. They own about 20% of our national debt.
searching
May 3, 2012 at 12:38 am
You may like this song. It’s catchy and good for walking
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivASIwtHALM
Gilad Atzmon
May 1, 2012 at 7:31 pm
Here is what I wrote on my site:
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/paul-eisen-in-conversation-with-gilad-atzmon-video.html
Introduction by Gilad Atzmon
When I met Paul Eisen back in 2001, he was the most respected Palestinian solidarity activist in Britain. At the time Eisen was the UK director of Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR) – an organization which memorialises the seminal massacre of the Palestinian villagers of Deir Yassin.
Eisen transformed the solidarity discourse. He managed to locate the Palestinian plight in general and DYR, in particular, at the very centre of the public discourse. He also managed to gain the support of the Palestinian and Arab communities – something most other Palestinian solidarity organisations have singularly failed to achieve.
Paul Eisen speaks with Gilad Atzmon from Tali Atzmon on Vimeo.
But, in the proximity of Deir Yassin to the Jewish Holocaust memorial at Yad Vashem, DYR and Eisen found meaning. Jewish suffering was now firmly on the agenda and then the inevitable happened. Possessing of a sharp intellect and an incurably inquisitive disposition, Eisen crossed red lines. First, he questioned the extent and the role of ‘Jewish Power’ in politics, daily life and its significant impact on the Palestinian solidarity discourse. Needless to say, this did not add much to Eisen’s popularity within the Jewish community in general and Jewish Left in particular. From 2004 onward, Eisen was subject to some vile Jewish campaigns led, as ever, by the so called Jewish ‘anti’ Zionists – a small community of noisy tribally driven gatekeepers, interested mainly in the maintenance of Jewish hegemony within the Left discourse and the Palestinian solidarity movement.
But Eisen didn’t surrender to pressure. A compulsive truth-seeker, he embarked on even more complex and contentious research. In 2005 he published ‘The Holocaust Wars’, a very courageous paper that attempted to grasp the Holocaust Revisionist argument from a compassionate perspective. In this paper Eisen adopted a humanist approach towards Holocaust history – Revisionism in general and the person of Ernest Zundel in particular. Though the paper didn’t take sides and aimed at presenting a genuine portrait of the debate, there was little chance of Eisen to surviving the battle to follow.
The publication of ‘The Holocaust Wars’ seemed at the time to be the end of Eisen’s solidarity career. Realising the danger facing Jewish tribal politics of any attempt to question Jewish suffering or even attempting to equate Palestinian with Jewish suffering, Eisen was abused on every possible Jewish outlet and beyond.
By then I had known Eisen for a few years and appreciated his kindness, honesty and genuine intellectual integrity. Obviously, I stood up for Paul Eisen and his clear right to express his thoughts. In fact, it was my support of Eisen that made me into a target of a very similar smear campaign.
However, unlike Eisen and many other great intellects in our movement who are abused by the intolerant Jewish ‘Left’ and its collaborators, I actually fought back. After all, I was brought up as an Israeli so I couldn’t possibly give in without a fight. In fact, unlike Eisen, I learned to enjoy the tribal abuse. I stood and let Alan Dershowitz, Tony Greenstein and Sarah Kershanr celebrate their symptoms. When Ali Abumina decided to join Abe Foxman and Dershowitz, I welcomed this manoeuvre as well. After all, we are dealing here with a bunch of devoted book burners, should we not allow them expose themselves?
I guess that the success of ‘The Wandering Who’ brought back hope to many hearts who have now found the wherewithal to fight back. I was most encouraged to see Paul Eisen re-launch DYR in the UK after five years of relative silence – and I was very impressed indeed by the support of the UK Palestinian community and the Palestinian delegation.
So here is myself in conversation with Paul. We spoke about everything (almost). The Nakba, Jewish Power, the Holocaust, Revisionism, denial. And so we should. Freedom of thought and expression is the true remedy to our contemporary malaise. Let every voice be heard.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 2:47 am
Very interesting dialog between Zundel (whom I only read about) and David Cole (whom I see for the first time here) about the importance of the Holocaust as the absolute specter of anti-semitism in Jewish identity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysJFJ4K8oJ8
Paul Eisen
May 2, 2012 at 5:22 am
David Cole was really something else (and still might be even more in the future. i think he’s terrific in that interview with ernst Zundel but see him a short while later with Bradley Smith on some big-time U.S. chat show and you can see that the strains are beginning to show.
Here’s the full text of David Cole’s recantation. which I quoted in full in the “The Holocaust Wars” – It makes terrifying reading
“This statement is given in an attempt to set the record straight about my current views regarding the Holocaust and Holocaust denial. As anyone who follows the subject of the Holocaust denial knows, from 1991 until 1994 I was well known in the movement as a Jewish Holocaust denier (a self-described “revisionist”). For the last three years I have no longer been associated with this movement, having realized that I was wrong and that the path I was taking with my life was self-destructive and hurtful to others. I have spent the last few years in silence on the subject of my time with the denial movement, a silence caused mainly by my shame at what I had done with my life and my desire to distance myself from that life.
However, in that shame-induced silence it has been brought to my attention that I have not gone as far as I should have to make a clear and complete public statement in order to set the record straight as to where I stand. It is my great hope that this statement accomplishes that task.
I would like to state for the record that there is no question in my mind that during the Holocaust of Europe’s Jews during World War II, the Nazis employed gas chambers in an attempt to commit genocide against the Jews. At camps in both Eastern and Western Europe, Jews were murdered in gas chambers which employed such poison gases as Zyklon B and carbon monoxide (in the Auschwitz camp, for example, the gas chambers used Zyklon B). The evidence for this is overwhelming and unmistakable.
The Nazis intended to kill all of the Jews of Europe, and the final death toll of this attempted genocide was six million. This atrocity, unique in its scope and breadth, must never be forgotten.
During my four years as a denier, I was wracked with self-hate and loathing, a fact that many of my critics were quick to point out. Indeed, this self hatred was obvious to most, but I was too blind to see it. The hate I had for myself I took out on my people. I was seduced by pseudo historical nonsense and clever-sounding but empty ideas and catch-phrases. When my eyes were finally opened, thanks to several good, kind friends who refused to give up on me even at my worst, I was horrified by what I had done. My instinct was to flee and never look back, but I now understand that I owe it to the people I wronged to make a forceful repudiation of my earlier views. I also owe a very large apology, not only to the many people I enraged, and to the family and friends I hurt, but especially to the survivors of the Holocaust, who deserve only our respect and compassion, not re-victimization.
Therefore, to all of the above people, let me offer my most humble and very, very sincere apology. I am sorry for what (I) did, and I am sorry for the hurt I caused.
And just as I must set the record straight concerning my views, it is also incumbent on me to set the record straight regarding the video “documentaries” and media appearances I did from 1991 to 1994. These “documentaries” are merely videotaped garbage filled with self-hatred and pseudo-intellectual nonsense. My “media appearances” were nothing but an embarrassment.
My glazed look, specious reasoning, and talking-in-circles during my talk show appearances would have hopefully alerted any astute viewers that this was a man not in touch with reality.
It has been brought to my attention that Bradley Smith is still using one of my videos in advertisements he is running on college campuses. Therefore, I would like to make these additional points: This video is being advertised without my consent, and I denounce this video as being without worth. Bradley Smith is no historian, and denial is no “historical field”. Students on college campuses should look elsewhere to find out about the Holocaust. To these students, I would say, look to books like Hilberg’s “Destruction of the European Jews”, Yahil’s “The Holocaust”, and Dawidowicz’s “War Against the Jews” for correct information. If your school library doesn’t stock these books, have them order copies. Do not pay any attention to any “David Cole” videos, except to rightly denounce them as frauds.
I am thankful for being given the opportunity to make this statement. This statement is made freely and under no duress, and is quite willingly, even happily given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defense League for the widest possible distribution. This statement is the most current and accurate compilation of my views, and it supersedes any previous writings, videos, or statements. It is my hope that there will be no more confusion as to where I stand. I thank you for letting me set the record straight. “
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Thanks, Paul.
Terrifying. Makes you cringe- and your heart goes out to him.
It is not enough to force him to recant, they require the victim to lower himself to the deepest pit of public humiliation so he can really and truly experience self-hatred and self-contempt and make an offer of it “quite willingly, even happily given to Mr. Irv Rubin of the Jewish Defense League for the widest possible distribution.”
I know an honorable man who can be said to possess what we called earlier “a good character,” who would not hurt a fly, and who, when a thug from the JDL shows up at his office, quietly pays his “contribution” out of sheer terror of them, because when they manage to open your vein they are unshakable vampires.
The FBI, as far as I can remember, has them listed on their list of terrorist organizations, yet nothing is done about them unless visible blood can be traced back to them “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
Silence and darkness is the medium where lurk and thrive the vilest expressions of human debasement and bestiality.
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 3:57 pm
I would remind you that Earl Kruger and Irv Rubin were both incarcerated ten years ago for conspiracy. In that case, in which the FBI investigated the JDL, they were found guilty on conspiring to bomb the offices of Darrel Issa.
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 5:27 pm
Um Kruger is the wrong kind of racist…..
I think you mean Krugel
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 5:32 pm
I do. Thanks for the correction.
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 5:34 pm
Its a pleasure.
It was informative. I learnt that (according to Wikipedia) Jimmy Kruger was born in Wales. I never knew that (if it’s true).
fool me once...
May 9, 2012 at 10:55 pm
A little clip of the lovely Irv Rubin getting put straight on a few things by Steve Cokely NoI.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YKOgqTa6yo
This Rubin character killed himself in jail awaiting trial.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irv_Rubin#Death_in_prison
Interesting fist and star symbol on his headstone.
http://www.kahanenet.org/
Paul Eisen
May 2, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Yes, but the JDL are only the extreme face of this kind of thing. The pressure from the mainstream jewish comunity, and especially family, is unbearable.
BTW, I was delighted that you mentioned Ernst Zundel. It’s long overdue on deLiberation.
I met him two summers ago at his home in Germany and all the regard I had from his activism and suffering was just confirmed.
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 4:55 pm
Here’s a delightful anecdote: Years ago, when I was involved in putting together a dossier on Zündel, his ex-wife, Irene, contacted me and handed over a bunch of information.
Among this information was this charmer: You might be aware that Ingrid, Ernst’s current wife, has two children from her first marriage. The younger, Erwin, has cerebral palsy due to birth trauma. He is profoundly developmentally and mentally disabled.
Ernst informed Ingrid that if he had his way and National Socialists took over the world, Erwin would be euthanized. And Ingrid was apparently OK with that.
That information, by the way, is available by making a request to the Canadian Human Rights Council. Go ahead and inquire.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 6:59 pm
Here’s another:
Feelings are not quantifiable, as we all agree, but I submit that the combination of feeling with physiologic response can be graded.
Disgust, for example, could be measured simply as the length of time (in seconds) it takes for an average person, of average sensitivity and intelligence to experience strong nausea when exposed to another’s statements.
In my estimate your “sharing” of the “anecdote” above rates as #1.
I could not explain it to you in a way you’d understand, however, because your post demonstrates the futility of it.
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 7:27 pm
But what do you think of the story? What do you think it says about the kind of man Ernst Zündel is?
searching
May 2, 2012 at 7:36 pm
So it means that you are against euthanasia and abortion as ways to destroy inncoent, fragile, powerless lives????
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 7:44 pm
I am against active euthanasia, just like I am against the death penalty, because I don’t believe in allowing the gov’t to make decisions to take the lives of the people.
I am for abortion on demand without apology. I am for euthanasia as a personal choice.
searching
May 3, 2012 at 12:12 am
It figures.
Innocent life obviously is not too much of the value for you.
I am against abortion and euthanasia,
but no so much against death penalty.
Death penalty usually is used to get rid of psychopatological indviduals, who act on their pathologies. There are not innocent, they were not powerless when they commited their crimes.
Euthanasia and abortion concerns innocent, fragile, powerless lives.
Those lives and those people should be protected, not destroyed.
The fact that MANY people think like you, for me is another, big sign that demonical, so-called “civilisation of death ” rules.
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 12:35 am
“Innocent life obviously is not too much of the value for you.”
That’s no true at all. First of all, many people subjected to the death penalty are innocent. That’s not the only reason I oppose the death penalty, but it’s one of them. And, as I said, I don’t want to give the government the right to take people’s lives.
“Euthanasia and abortion concerns innocent, fragile, powerless lives.”
With euthanasia, it’s a matter of whether the person has consented to having their life taken. If they have, then I don’t have any problem with it. Human societies should be more merciful and permit people who are ill and in tremendous pain to end their suffering if they so choose.
I see that as an issue of compassion, as well as morality.
I believe in abortion because I don’t think a fetus’s rights are equal to those of a viable human woman. I think there’s a point along a pregnancy at which point it becomes immoral, but I’m unable to draw that line and wouldn’t want to anyway.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 3, 2012 at 12:35 am
Wouldn’t it be more consistent with your beliefs to be against ALL life taking?
After all, the ones whose killings you uphold may even be victims of judicial error. Did you read the other day in the US media about the guy who just got out after 16 years in jail (I believe he had “life without parole” but only because of the moratorium on the death penalty) because a belated DNA analysis not only exonerated him without a shadow of doubt but also identified the real murderer)?
Just sayiin’.
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 12:36 am
Even more so, in Illinois nearly twenty years ago, they found twelve men on death row who were entirely innocent. That was after they had executed the same number since the 1970s.
It is a foregone conclusion that capital punishment as a policy results in innocent people being murdered. Any person who would oppose abortion but support the taking of innocent human lives is someone I don’t understand.
searching
May 4, 2012 at 9:20 pm
You proof again that you are not smart at all, despite your phony phd degree.
Abortion took away more than 1.5 billons of people life . You support that.
Death penalty ,if used, should be applied only to the most pathological criminals ,whose crimes were proven beyond resonable doubts.
Do you feel sorry for execution of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Hess after the war??
searching
May 4, 2012 at 10:24 pm
Judicial/trial errors are something that should be prevented as much as possible. It does happen unfortunately, same as accidents, medical errors etc. Again ,the judicial system should work the best methods out to avoid them.
But, I am not going to shed a tear for some cruel, merciless criminal ,who killed innocent people. Imagine that it was your family or friends who got murdered???
My main point however was that I see it as a a very illogial, and in a way inhuman ,the way many people (like amemathisphd) would favour abortion and euthansia but strongly object death penalty.
I am sure amemathisphd would not object death penalty performed after Nuremberg trials on Nazi opressors.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 5, 2012 at 12:59 am
“Judicial/trial errors are something that should be prevented as much as possible.”
Sorry to disagree–”as much as possible” is not good enough.
“Imagine that it was your family or friends who got murdered???”
Even so I cannot imagine revenge–because that’s all that is–would bring relief. I was going to say it is not Christian but then I remembered that the most moving and uplifting example in recent memory is the Israeli mother whose son was killed in a suicide bombing and made it her mission to reach out to Palestinian parents mourning their loss –with your skill in finding links I’m sure you can find the story, it’s not that old.
I’m no fan of aema so let’s leave him out, but I find illogical and not very, shall we say spiritual, is to be pro-life but for the death penalty.
Ask yourself “What would Jesus choose”? — as an American slogan goes.
searching
May 5, 2012 at 1:37 am
So you one of those people who are going to cry out loud for a few people, maybe erroneously sentenced to death penalty over many years ,while the death of 1.5 billion of completely innocent children is for your just a statistics??
Forgivness has not too much to do with justice. You may ,( and probalby should) forgive somebody, who did you very wrong ,but the justice still should be done. Especially if the crime was hienous.
Being pro-life, but for the death penalty is not that illogical. It is the same logic that you apply in self-defense.
You probably would hurt/maybe even kill somebody in self-defense. Nobody would blame you for that.
Death penaly directed on murderers (assuming that their crimes are proven beyond any reasonable doubt)is a way of a collective self-defense.
What would Jesus do??
Oh, those love dovey, evengelical questions.
Jesus did not gave us directions how to set up our political or judicial system.
He taught us some values that we should apply in our lives in order to reach heaven. He did not tell us how to run the deatails of everyday life. He was not a sissy, peace loving hippy type that some would like him to be.
He said for exampel: ” I did not come to bring peace, I came to bring sword to you………..”
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 5, 2012 at 2:48 am
“the death of 1.5 billion of completely innocent children is for your just a statistics??”
)
I never addressed that. Don’t go aema on me. (He is still useful, even posthumously…
“Being pro-life, but for the death penalty is not that illogical. It is the same logic that you apply in self-defense. You probably would hurt/maybe even kill somebody in self-defense. Nobody would blame you for that.”
1. No it is not the same at all. When you execute a criminal you are not defending yourself–it’s well past that; it is just revenge: “a dish served cold.”
2. The issue for you to consider is not whether you would be “blamed for that” by someone else. Think about it.
“Jesus did not gave us directions how to set up our political or judicial system.”
So his teachings are irrelevant in taking a life? Anyone’s life.
“So you one of those people who are going to cry out loud for a few people, maybe erroneously sentenced to death penalty over many years.”
I certainly hope so. You talk about statistics but it sounds to me that innocent people executed by mistake are to you just that, a kind of acceptable ” coefficient of error.”
Sorry we part ways on this topic.
searching
May 6, 2012 at 2:21 pm
Hate to say it, but you represent, in this matter, the typical, brainwashed view of many western individuals, who easily accepted legalisation of one the biggest crimes ever, that is an abortion ,but cry loudly over the death penalty being still in use in some countries.
This attitude shows cleary how seriously screwed up and decadent, so called western civilisation has become.
Killing innocent, powerless,very fragile life –very OK, sentencing to death vicious criminals, who killed other,innocent, powereless people– oh, no,it’s so NOT OK.
That kind of logic, or rather anti-logic is mind blowing.
But it does not surprise me.
Western countries are going back to be barbarians, neo-pogans times. They lost most of the moral values and their doom is coming.
This civilisation is doomed to fail. Like all similar in the history.
Once you start to loose you moral compass, once anti-values become you values, then, this is the end, my friend, this is the end.
Right after the war, in Nuremberg Trials, euthansia was condemned as a crime against humanity”, 30-40 years later euthanasia became legalised in some of the European countries.
We are going back to paganism. But at least pagans, when they devoted their newborn children to god Moloch that did it to appease his anger etc, we , our generation commits abortion out of sheer egotism, convenience.
We have now travesty/a parody of the law. That’s why this law allows Isreal carry its imhuman occupation of Palestine and does nothing about it, except issuing next, useless statements.
It is a stalling process just to keep the public happy , just to blow some sand in the public eyes .
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 6, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Perhaps I do represent all that’s evil to you and I can live with it, but what’s certain is that all you want to talk about is the issue of abortion.
You keep doing it although it could not have escaped your attention that I did not reference it except in pointing out that your pro-life stance has a big gap in it: the zestful embrace of death penalty including the acceptance of “errors” where a number of innocent people are executed.
Since your statement “That kind of logic, or rather anti-logic is mind blowing.” is one both of us could well make about each other, why don’t you accept what I have already suggested:
Let’s agree to disagree on the death penalty.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 5, 2012 at 2:58 am
“He taught us some values that we should apply in our lives in order to reach heaven. He did not tell us how to run the deatails of everyday life.”
I prefer to think that those values are indeed very much about how to live our lives on earth and behave toward each other, not just a quid pro quo with the benefits to be cashed after death.
” He was not a sissy, peace loving hippy type that some would like him to be.”
My, my what a fierce warrior is wasted in you…
searching
May 5, 2012 at 2:04 am
Justice is also not a revenge. I don’t understand why you are mixing those things.
Forgivness is an act , a very personal act that a person, who was done wrong, may do towards a person who did something wrong to him/her.
It’s good to forgive for many reasons, but it is not an easy task to do, especailly if the wound is very deep. And nobody has to right to forgive in the name of those who were done wrong. It is not right.
Revenge is something that some people do , instead of forgivness, when they were done wrong, ( or feel like they were). Sometimes is justifable , sometimes not.
Justice is something done, (or should be done)usually by using an offical, legal, aproved ,formal procedures, institutions etc.
Ancient Romans paid a lot of attention to the law, they believed in a power of justice and law.
Now with the overall corruption and turning values upside down we have oftentimes a mockery of justice.
And it’s gonna get worse.
Jay Knott
May 3, 2012 at 1:43 am
It’s funny to see the words ‘Canadian’, ‘Human’, ‘Rights’, and ‘Zundel’ on the same page. Zundel isn’t the only person to have his rights violated by Canada’s laws. It’s more p.c. and Zionized than the USA. Greg Felton, who writes on this site from Canada, is brave to defend un-Zio-pc views.
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Anyone else find it curious that Paul Eisen was able to post here under Laura Stewart’s name?
Roy Bard
May 2, 2012 at 5:29 pm
Whats your theory Doctor.
Mine is that they are both authors and so both have access to admin ……
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 5:32 pm
On the same computer? Do they live together? Work together? Do admins know each others’ logins?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 7:16 pm
What I find curious, Doubtful Guest, is that no sooner did you find the door through which you had been shown out to be unlocked and you snuck back in again, you instantly started to make yourself annoying in small, dumb ways.
Since you exist here only on the sufferance (and suffering, I think) of the site Admin and since presumably you wish to last longer, shouldn’t you save yourself for the “big” topics?
If you aspire to seriously sap the health of this site, why shouldn’t you dream big? Why not try to be a cancer of the site rather than its eczema or foot fungus?
Loren Franklin
May 2, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Why are you allowed to speak in that manner to others without being tossed off, Ariadna? Do you really assume that you are so much better than others, that you can show such pubescent disregard for common decency? Your childish behavior is far from enlightening. You should clean up your own closet before telling others about theirs.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 2, 2012 at 8:06 pm
I am ready to mend my ways if shown where I have gone wrong.
Please tell me what offended you in my post: my strong objection to hecklers or the admittedly strong metaphors I used to express them?
Somoe
May 5, 2012 at 11:17 am
Ariadna gets away with speaking in such a fashion because she does it so artfully. She makes her point and does it with wit and good humour.
Are you trying to do an ‘Ariadna’ back at her, Loren?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 6, 2012 at 8:46 pm
“Yes, but the JDL are only the extreme face of this kind of thing. The pressure from the mainstream jewish comunity, and especially family, is unbearable.”
Another thing that occurred to me is that you also are often put in the position to defend yourself from the association with “supporters” you have not chosen, do not care to have, and who may be using you for their nefarious purposes.
searching
May 2, 2012 at 5:04 pm
“Silence and darkness is the medium where lurk and thrive the vilest expressions of human debasement and bestiality.”
That is soo true.
Jay Knott
May 3, 2012 at 3:59 am
This ‘retraction’ by David Cole is more like a story from the Soviet Union. On that subject, I once thought the Russian revolution of 1917 was a good thing. Then I changed my mind. I didn’t ‘retract’, nor apologize to any of the relatives of that event’s millions of victims. Only ‘the’ holocaust demands such self-abasement in people who simply made some mistakes.
E.H. Carr (British historian of the Russian revolution) made some errors in calculating millions of deaths. Eric Hobsbawm (another respected British historian, honoured by the Queen and revered by the left) made mistakes too, like supporting various Soviet atrocities. David Irving has no doubt made a number of errors too, in addition to his useful contributions to understanding 20th century history. But he gets treated completely differently. His miscalculations weren’t about ordinary mortals.
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 4:24 am
I think the Russian Revolution of March 1917 was a very good thing. I think the Bolshevik coup the following November was not. It’s important to distinguish.
I do think the Bolsheviks were better than the Tsar, at least until Stalin took over. But that’s like being shot versus being stabbed.
Jay Knott
May 3, 2012 at 4:45 am
Well, OK, Andrew. But my point really is about discrimination among historians and other writers and speakers. One can make huge mistakes and get along fine, unless it is THAT huge mistake.
Yet you seem to have put quite a bit of effort into correcting the one historical error, underestimating the H, which already attracts more opprobrium than all others put together. That imbalance is an example of discrimination too – in this case, racial discrimination.
aemathisphd
May 3, 2012 at 2:44 pm
You misunderstand me, Jay: I’m not correcting errors. I’m correcting denial. And as denial goes, it’s really only one historical series of events that gets denied in this forum.
Jay Knott
May 4, 2012 at 6:50 pm
‘aemathisphd’ illustrates my point. Errors made about one particular horrific event are a special case – ‘denial’. No-one accuses E.H. Carr and other leftist historians of ‘denial’ regarding their errors on Soviet history. More like ‘like many intellectuals of his generation, Carr underestimated the extent to which Stalin…’. Another historian, one recommended by aemathisphd, wrote a book about David Irving called ‘Lying for Hitler’. No-one would write a book about E.H. Carr called ‘Lying for Stalin’. The scale of the massacres, the scale of the errors, is roughly comparable.
Paul Eisen
May 2, 2012 at 7:34 pm
It says far more about you and about the Canadian Human Rights Council
Editor,
Please add my name to the list of those complaining about this highly unpleasant individual.
Many thanks
Paul
aemathisphd
May 2, 2012 at 7:45 pm
You object because I point out the kind of person Ernst Zündel really is.
deLiberation
May 4, 2012 at 9:54 pm
aemathisphd is gone searching. We booted him out by popular vote
fool me once...
May 9, 2012 at 11:20 pm
“aemathisphd is gone searching.”
Indeed, a wandering jew.
I’m sure with his new, well earned lurker status, he wont miss this homage, that i think captures Mathis a his best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9xWYApbd6Y
searching
May 5, 2012 at 2:03 am
Justice is also not a revenge. I don’t understand why you are mixing those things.
Forgivness is an act , a very personal act that a person, who was done wrong, may do towards a person who did something wrong to him/her.
It’s good to forgive for many reasons, but it is not an easy task to do, especailly if the wound is very deep. And nobody has to right to forgive in the name of those who were done wrong. It is not right.
Revenge is something that some people do , instead of forgivness, when they were done wrong, ( or feel like they were). Sometimes is justifable , sometimes not.
Justice is something done, (or should be done)usually by using an offical, legal, aproved ,formal procedures, institutions etc.
Ancient Romans paid a lot of attention to the law, they believed in a power of justice and law.
Now with the overall corruption and turning values upside down we have oftentimes a mockery of justice. And it’s gonna get worse.
Paul Eisen
May 6, 2012 at 4:37 pm
More of David Cole
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ajWZVnWDTs&feature=email
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 6, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Amazing. Thanks, Paul.
This interview with him –posted on The Nizkor Project site (!) appears to have been done in 1995:
“But mabe my appearances on the talk shows have yielded some positive
results. After all, didn’t the “Montel Williams” episode I did with Mark
Weber end up reuniting two long lost brothers, who each thought the other
had been gassed at Auschwitz? And I think that my film clips from
Majdanek (which I showed on “Donahue”) might also have some positive
effects; I’ve been told by a “little bird” (a usually reliable little
bird) that there’s a chance that the Majdanek Museum might soon jettison
one or all of their “homicidal” gas chambers. Last year, when I met with
Majdanek Museum Curator Tomasz Kranz, he seemed ready to do that with
their largest “homicidal” (actually delousing) gas chamber. I’m not a
betting man, but I’d wager that, more than any concerns about historical
accuracy, the major concern of the Majdanek Museum is that without “gas
chambers” to view, no one would have any reason to travel to Lublin!
I wonder what the response will be on the ‘net if the Majdanek gas
chambers, which have been like a “pet project” of mine for the past three
years, are officially revised? I mean, right now everyone calls me a
liar…”
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/c/cole.david/ftp.py?people/c/cole.david//interview.0695
Paul Eisen
May 7, 2012 at 12:26 pm
I’ve only watched about a third of the clip but what amazes me is how receptive the early-nineties audience are to the revisionist point of view.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
May 7, 2012 at 12:52 pm
A show like that would not be put on American TV (main channel, not cable at that) today at all.