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Gul’s Goal: Turkish F-4 downed by Syria

Byzantine at heart, the Rising Ottoman is planning to…

Pantsir-S1 air defense system
used by Syria

Certain news create nostalgia for the times in which governments censored almost everything. Back then, one was spared the insulting attempts to manipulate public opinion by sheer lies told by governments. Yesterday, June 22, 2012, an American-made Phantom F-4 jet in service of the Turkish army was downed by Syrian air defense systems. Subsequently, the plane crashed into the Mediterranean Sea. Today, Saturday, the Turkish and Syrian navies are still searching for the two pilots in a friendly show of cooperation. Until this point, all the events were admitted by all sides. In a formal statement, Turkey President Abdullah Gul said that the fighter jet had crossed the border into Syria, and then he added that the Turkish government could not ignore the fact that Syria had shot down a Turkish aircraft; implying possible Turkish answers to the event. He didn’t mention Syria’s right of self-defense. Almost every word was expected; but then, Mr. Gul added a very odd statement.

Phantom F-4 in Turkish Service

“It is routine for jet fighters to sometimes fly in and out over borders… when you consider their speed over the sea,” Mr. Gul said. I must agree with him that fighter jets fly fast; the McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom involved in this event can reach a top speed of over Mach 2.2. Yet, it has an advanced navigation system, and is capable of incredibly complex maneuvers, like landing with astonishing exactitude. This aircraft seldom misses a landing strip, regardless its narrowness. A landing strip is geometrically identical to a border; there is no reason why such a fighter would have troubles finding it. Moreover, as a fighter, it can make high-speed maneuvers in order to intercept—or escape from—an enemy aircraft. Sometimes, this is done with a precision of inches, as it had been shown on endless documentaries analyzing such events. Yet, this state-of-the-art fighter made yesterday a very clumsy incursion into Syria’s Latakia Governorate, as the map below shows. It made a loop that began and ended tragically in the Mediterranean Sea; flying miles over Syrian territory. With all the sympathy to Mr. Gul, his description of the event as an error is unacceptable. Another point of interest I want to mention before attempting to analyze Mr. Gul’s goals, is that Turkey uses upgraded Phantoms. They were improved in 1995 by Israel’s IAI and are known as F-4E 2020 Terminator; they are used massively in the suppression of the Kurd uprising in Eastern Turkey.

Turkish Phantom Trajectory | According to Syrian Sources

Turkish Phantom Trajectory | According to Syrian News Agency
Slicing Syria

A Turkish fighter entered Syrian airspace uninvited and was shot down by an almost automatic air defense system. Syria owns one of the most sophisticated such systems in the Middle East; it regularly upgrades it with Russian equipment. All its neighbors know that; thus such a deep incursion by a single fighter without previous notice can only be defined as a wild provocation. Mr. Gul and the Turkish Army wanted a downed aircraft. Technically, now they have an excuse to reciprocate. Overall, this is a slight variation on a classical false flag attack; call it “clumsy flag attack” if you want.

Provocation

The Rising Ottoman is Byzantine at its heart; the most obvious reason for its sacrificing a fighter is almost for sure not the main one. After almost 18 months of civil war, Syria is at the verge of being sliced by NATO supported forces. It is difficult to look at what is happening nowadays between Turkey and Syria and not to recognize that Turkey is returning to its historical role as a colonial power. It is openly supporting a rebel Syrian group. It supports the establishment of security zones for Syrian refugees inside Syrian territory. Until now, it claimed this should be done as part of an international force under UN mandate; however, it has also declared that it may have to act on its own if the Syrian uprising threatens its national security. Turkey is part of NATO, the North Atlantic Alliance, which attacked and practically destroyed Libya last year (see Media Manipulation, Libya and Western Lies). Turkey spearheading NATO attacks on Syria in an attempt to provoke the last to react and then justify a subsequent brutal reaction by NATO is a credible scenario. Yet, this is unlikely to be Gul’s goal. Turkey is not interested in an occupied Syria being controlled from Brussels. Why should Turkey share its colonial cake?

“Elementary, Dr. Watson!”

The trajectory of the abovementioned fighter is of enormous interest, since it pinpointed Turkey’s main interest. It flew just south of Hatay. In 1938, Hatay—a small territory on the Mediterranean coast—became independent from the French mandate of Syria as the Republic of Hatay. Following a referendum in 1939, Hatay decided to join Turkey, forming the singular panhandle shape that can be seen on the maps of Turkey. Syria still doesn’t recognize that event as legitimate. In the last year, this area had regained strategic importance after the break-up of the Turkish-Israeli alliance due to the Freedom Flotilla Affair. This break-up is shaping the exploitation of the newly discovered gas reservoirs in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. In Greece’s Fadeaway: Iran and Israel Battle over Cyprus, I analyzed the new regional alliances fighting over the large reservoirs of gas (and more, see Gas, Oil … Uranium) in the eastern side of the Mediterranean Sea. In November 2011, Cyprus announced it would explore its undersea natural gas wells in cooperation with Israel; this was the trigger for Netanyahu’s visit to the island in February 2012. The agreements announced between the countries—including military ones—indicate that Israel has shifted its main ally in the area from Turkey to Cyprus. Turkey has announced that it would not allow underwater drills in Cypriot waters, clearly citing military preventative actions. The Turkish intervention is the result of Cyprus being divided between the Republic of Cyprus in the south and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Thus, two clear bands had been created around the gas field issue: Turkey-Lebanon-Northern Cyprus-Iran, and Israel-Cyprus. Later on, in April, Greece joined the Israeli led alliance; this is important since Greece is a major worldwide player in oil transport. The USA—technically Turkey’s ally in NATO—has conducted the “Noble Dina” military drill with Israel and Greece in the gas fields area. Led by the U.S. Sixth Fleet, Noble Dina involves simulations of combat against submarines, air battles and protection of offshore natural gas platforms. What will NATO do if a war erupts between these two alliances? Both alliances have announced that the gas fields are casus belli. In June 2012, Israel announced the beginning of a feasibility study regarding artificial islands that would facilitate its control over the fields. Considering this, the Turkish provocation acquires an additional dimension that clearly transcend NATO.

Lebanon and Northern Cyprus are Turkey’s actual access points to the gas fields. Turkey would like to expand its access to the Mediterranean Sea, as well as to facilitate its communications and transport with Lebanon, which in the next years may become a regional power replacing the troubled Syria. The provocation of the fighter remains a provocation under this scenario, but its goals slightly shifts. Slicing Syria in order to annex the Latakia Governorate to Turkey—as it was done with Hatay in the past—will open a land corridor between Turkey and Lebanon as well as increase Turkey’s access to the gas fields. Byzantine at heart, the Rising Ottoman is planning to renew its historical empire.

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111 Responses to Gul’s Goal: Turkish F-4 downed by Syria

  1. who_me June 24, 2012 at 12:33 am #

    Roy Tov

    nice job.

  2. who_me June 24, 2012 at 5:39 pm #

    one possibility i had thought was the turkish military had sent the planes on their own to get syria to attack, but now turkey is lying and claiming the plane was shot down in international waters. That according to radio liberty. turkey going to nato further shows the turks planned the incident, it isn’t something just their military is behind, but the whole government.

  3. who_me June 25, 2012 at 12:43 am #

    http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16252413

    “The wreckage of a Turkish jet shot down by Syria has been located in Syrian waters, as the United States strongly condemned the “brazen and unacceptable act”.”

    yet the israeli suck-ups running turkey are also claiming the syrians shot the aircraft down in international waters.

    this is what zionazism does to people’s brains.

  4. who_me June 25, 2012 at 11:34 pm #

    ok, there is no doubt now the turks were carrying out a planned zionazi provocation op in order to weasel in a nato war against syria:

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/us-help-turkey-hold-syria-accountable-jet-shoot-213428025.html

    “The White House on Monday promised to work with Turkey and other NATO allies to hold Syria “accountable” for what American officials have described as the deliberate downing of a Turkish military jet, apparently in international airspace.

    Turkey said it would push NATO, whose governing body meets Tuesday to discuss the matter, to consider the June 22 incident an attack on the entire alliance. Under Article V of NATO’s founding document, an attack on one member is considered an attack on all.”

    i guess the turks love the taste of ziobum. the question is how real turks feel about seeing their government on its knees slurping away, while they pay the price for the crimes these treasonous quisling commit?

  5. Jonathon Blakeley June 25, 2012 at 11:44 pm #

    I agree – this looks the likely route to war for Nato. Great scoop from Roy.

  6. who_me June 25, 2012 at 11:45 pm #

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31597

    Beating the Drums of War: A Precursor to War: Syria by John Robles

    “Despite all of the efforts of the UN and Russia and other countries that have influence in the region, the West continues to do anything and everything that it can to facilitate and provoke an invasion of Syria, and it is clear that those beating the drums of war have no interest in the untold number of lives that will be snuffed out by the hell they are preparing to unleash on the people of Syria, who are already suffering, nor on the very distinct possibility that it will ignite a larger violent conflict in the region.

    If you have been following the news I am sure that you have heard by now that over the weekend a Turkish F-4 Phantom Fighter was shot down over the territory of Syria. At first Turkey reported that the aircraft was flying in international waters and almost immediately called for an emergency NATO session under article 4. As Turkey is a NATO member it does have that right to do so. Article 4 states that member countries must meet, “whenever the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the parties is threatened.”

    So here we have it, what anyone who has been watching the situation in Syria has been waiting for: the perfect pretext for a Syrian “no fly zone, humanitarian intervention” invasion. Again directed from Washington, carried out by its surrogate NATO, and taking place on the Eurasian continent.

    The war drums are beating once again, and even though Turkey has now admitted the fighter “strayed” into Syrian airspace, and the wreckage has been found on the bed of the Mediterranean, in Syrian waters at a depth of 1,300 meters, there is no talk of cancelling their call for talks on NATO involvement.

    While the Western media are full of reports blaming Syria and the like, no one thinks to question why in such a volatile area and under the current circumstances Turkey would send, or even allow, their fighter aircraft into the area and then allow it fly into Syrian air-space.

    Provocation: pure and simple. And the timing could not be more perfect, coming on the heels of developments that undermine the plans of the North Atlantic Alliance. The first being the Syrian government pledging to follow the peace plan drawn up by Kofi Annan and the another being the inclusion of the opposition in the new cabinet and government formed after the country’s first multiparty elections which were held on May the 7th.

    This also comes on the heels of reports and the materialization of evidence that the CIA and the West are funding and arming the Syrian “rebels” and a failed propaganda attempt by Hillary Clinton to provoke Russia and again give a reason for military intervention in Syria.

    The playbook is the same and follows the script for complete and total global domination that was drawn up by the Project for the New American Century before the events of 9-11, an event which served as the catalyst for all of the wars we are living through today and which has pulled the world into an endless global war against phantom enemies.

    First there are accusations of human rights abuses, mass killings, weapons of mass destruction, acts of aggression etc., then reports of the necessity to intervene, after which complete obliteration and destruction of the target country, massive casualties and then control of resources, the members of the new ruling class, and massive profits from reconstruction and resource control.

    We have seen the same thing before with NATO and the U.S.: Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, and Kosovo; it is a formula they seem to have stuck to because so far they have gone unpunished for what in fact are crimes against humanity. Yes, waging a war of aggression is a crime against humanity. Even if it is a “preventive” war as the US loves to go around labeling its bloody criminal killing enterprises.

    There are always accusations of terrible crimes and violence that must not go unpunished by what in fact are the worst out-of-control killers, killing thousands and destroying countries to make them exploitable, in what must be called one the worst crimes against humanity that can be committed, and they do so based on lies and through media manipulation. They have grown so emboldened that they do so regularly and will say anything at all, now without even the need for proof or backing evidence.

    Take Hillary Clinton’s recent accusations against Russia, accusing it of selling attack helicopters to Syria, when in fact under old contracts it was selling and servicing what are largely transport helicopters, which of course could be outfitted with guns. We could say the same thing about the US if a terrorist uses an American car, fills it with explosives and blows it up. We could say the US is supplying terrorists with exploding cars. Ridiculous, and for comments like this to be made by the Secretary of State and then for redactions to be made when they are immediately seen for the lie they are would have been an unforgiveable disgrace before 9-11.

    Now they are emboldened, running amok and out of control, making statements and fabrications so obvious and so unbelievable to back up their killing machine that it seems an effort in futility to try to counter such an assault on humanity.

    For that is what it is, an assault on humanity, on every thinking, breathing, feeling and conscious being on the planet. When one country is allowed to kill at will, a country with a president who laughs that he has a daily assassination list he signs off on, the world must pull together and cut off the head of the beast even it is the Hydra.

    We must not sit idly by while they invade yet another sovereign nation on false evidence; any country that does so even once must be stripped of its weapons and of any right to wage war.”

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 12:13 am #

      “There are always accusations of terrible crimes and violence that must not go unpunished by what in fact are the worst out-of-control killers, killing thousands and destroying countries to make them exploitable, in what must be called one the worst crimes against humanity that can be committed,…”

      I noticed a key phrase also repeated every time:
      “his own people” and I have wondered if the crimes of which the tyrant du jour is accused are supposed to seem more horrible to us if we are told he did that to “his own people” or that it is a distinction Israel benefits from: they only massacre Goyim.

      • searching June 26, 2012 at 1:02 am #

        “it is a distinction Israel benefits from: they only massacre Goyim.”
        To be more precise, the Jewish Power Elite makes sure that goyim massacre goyim.
        The JPE benefits from it.
        So far ,they can congratulate themselves, they are doing an excellent job in using a “dividing and conquering” (benefiting)method. This diabolic method always works and they use it very skillfully and with no mercy whatsoever.

        • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 1:04 am #

          No, in Israel/Palestine they do it themselves.

          • searching June 26, 2012 at 1:20 am #

            but in Iraq, afghanistan, libya, serbia (russia 1917, ww1,ww2) ,and now syria and probalby iran they use goyim. goyim against goyim. there is no enough Israeli to cover up all those regions.
            cloning is not invented yet.

          • searching June 26, 2012 at 1:23 am #

            plus Israel get plenty of help from their biggets ally, USA. Goyim money from goyim taxes is poured to Israel, so it may continue its politics of massacre of other goyim. money never stinks, even if ot comes from stinky goyim pockets.

  7. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 12:00 am #

    “The White House on Monday promised to work with Turkey and other NATO allies to hold Syria “accountable” for what American officials have described as the deliberate downing of a Turkish military jet, apparently in international airspace.”

    [Deliberate downing! The nerve! A mistake we could have forgiven...]

    “Turkey said it would push NATO, whose governing body meets Tuesday to discuss the matter, to consider the June 22 incident an attack on the entire alliance. Under Article V of NATO’s founding document, an attack on one member is considered an attack on all.”

    It is the same game that was played with Libya: try to go through the Security Council, the Russians thwart you, drop that and go NATO on them.

    “Still, President Barack Obama has expressed mounting frustration with the weak international response to Syrian President Bashar al-Assad’s 15-month crackdown on opposition to his iron-fisted rule. Outside observers have put the death toll at around 14,000. Russia and China have blocked U.N. Security Council approval of tighter sanctions on Assad’s regime. And the violence has eroded relations between Washington and Moscow.”

    Not the violence… the violence is our doing, it is the expense and the frustration and all that waiting and having to be prodded again and again by Israel and still being thwarted by Russia.

    • who_me June 26, 2012 at 12:08 am #

      “Not the violence… the violence is our doing, it is the expense and the frustration and all that waiting and having to be prodded again and again by Israel and still being thwarted by Russia.”

      yup, demigods don’t like it when their powers fall short of being full gods.

  8. who_me June 26, 2012 at 2:00 am #

    http://www.rt.com/news/plane-violation-syrian-foreign-667/

    “Magdissi said the Turkish claim that their military jet was shot down in international air space after leaving Syrian territory was false. The aircraft was hit by air defense artillery, not a surface-to-air missile, and this weapon’s maximum range is just 1.2 kilometers, he said in a statement aired on Syrian TV.

    Commenting on the claims that no warning has been given before the downing, Magdissi said the Syrian defense forces “have been taken by surprise to see such a plane.”

    “Syria air defense taken by surprise by plane at 100m altitude, even if plane was Syrian we would have shot it down,” he said.”

    check out the +- vote, 200+. usually one might see 50 votes on an rt article, if it is especially about a subject very popular. the comments, also. over a 100, very unusual. most of the rt viewers are not russian, and these not-russians are f… pissed off and seeing throught the zionazi charade.

    real people are are buying the zionazi bs.

  9. who_me June 26, 2012 at 2:01 am #

    “real people are are buying the zionazi bs.”

    real people are not buying the zionazi bs.

  10. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 2:26 am #

    Our MSM says:
    “Russian President Vladimir Putin on Monday cautioned against foreign interference in Syria during a rare visit to Israel aimed at burnishing Kremlin’s credentials as a key Middle East power broker.
    During the trip, which is seen as a Kremlin diplomatic mission as world powers scramble for a solution to the Syria and Iran crises, Putin also said it was “unacceptable to think of mutual destruction.”
    “From the very beginning of the so-called Arab Spring, Russia has been persuading its partners that democratic changes should take place in a civilised manner and without external intervention,” Putin said after meeting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during his first visit to the country since 2005.”

    The conclusion of the article VERBATIM except that I am capitalizing what struck me the most::

    “Putin’s STRIDENT RHETORIC and a FLAT_OUT REFUSAL TO SUPPORT SANCTIONS AGAINST MOSCOW’S SOVIET ERA ALLY, SYRIA, HAVE PITTED HIM AGAINST THE WEST.

    Amazing! What exactly is “strident” in what he said?!?
    After all this time reading BS and in-your-face lies it still amazes me.
    Also note the sly insinuation about the Soviet era to make the reader understand that Russia is still … the Soviet Union after all.

    • who_me June 26, 2012 at 2:55 am #

      the russians are being decidedly “blank”. they are not saying much. putin is in israel, but about all the english language russian media is showing is that putin appears extremely bored in the presence of both netanyahu and peres. one article about the syrian-turk shootdown incident (on voice of russia) stresses it would not be in israel’s interests to see syria go the way of libya. i have not seen anything from china.

  11. who_me June 26, 2012 at 4:14 am #

    a very interesting take i have not seen before:

    http://www.rt.com/news/turkish-plane-nato-syria-725/

    “Friend or foe?

    ­The Turkish military jet’s incursion into Syria may have been a botched NATO operation on counterfeiting Syrian military aircraft ID in order to fool the country’s air defense. The necessary codes could have been “borrowed” from the Syrian fighter that had been stolen by its defector pilot.

    This theory, explaining why the Turkish reconnaissance plane entered Syrian airspace before being taken down, was voiced by Russian newspaper Komsomolskaya Pravda, which cited unnamed sources in the Syrian security forces.

    Syrians believe that the Friday incident has its roots in last week’s defection of a Syrian pilot who escaped in his MiG-21 fighter jet to Jordan. Damascus branded the defector a traitor, while Jordanian authorities gave him asylum.

    The defection brings memories of a similar incident that took place in February 2011, when two Libyan pilots “delivered” their military aircraft to Malta. NATO’s bombing campaign, which ended with the fall of the Muammar Gaddafi’s government, started just a month after.

    Military analysts note that, curiously, the Libyan air defense systems appeared to be helpless against NATO’s air strikes. The explanation may lie in the friend-or-foe systems that the two stolen aircraft had onboard, the newspaper suggests. This system is used by the military in combat to distinguish their own aircraft.

    According to the newspaper, the Syrian military believe that NATO took a similar approach again, but failed to properly decipher the codes. This is evident by the fact that the defector pilot managed to send his family to Turkey before stealing the fighter jet, which means the act was probably not done out of a sudden emotional breakdown.

    Turkey may have been given the task by NATO to test how well the job was performed, and the result was disastrous, the report explains.

    This is only a theory and more trivial explanations cannot be ruled out – but the intrusion is more likely to have been part of a military operation rather than the mistake Turkey claims it to be, military experts say.”

    could mean zionazi war on syria very soon.

  12. Cosmo June 26, 2012 at 9:41 am #

    “Mr. Gul and the Turkish Army wanted a downed aircraft. Technically, now they have an excuse to reciprocate. Overall, this is a slight variation on a classical false flag attack; call it “clumsy flag attack” if you want.”

    Well at least they didn’t send a ship full of civilians to be sacrficied this time in their clumsy flag attack.

  13. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 12:05 pm #

    “at least they didn’t send a ship full of civilians to be sacrficied this time”

    It never occurred to me that the peace volunteers ships were sent on purpose to be ‘sacrificed’, but you are right, Cosmo, they should have known that the Israelis are murdering pirates, attacking and killing people in international waters. You are right!

    • Jay Knott June 26, 2012 at 4:20 pm #

      Zionists usually attribute the deaths on the Gaza convoy in 2010 to the fact that the victims were ‘terrorists’, but Cosmo blames them on the organizers for sending ‘civilians’. It’s difficult to be consistent when you’re defending murder. What they really mean is, Jews killed non-Jews, and that’s OK.

      • Cosmo June 26, 2012 at 4:43 pm #

        I don’t know about other Zionists but for me most people on the convoy were civilians and only a few of the passangers on board one ship were IHH terrorists. The IHH had no problem putting the lives of all the civilians on board at risk.

        How did you know who’s a terrorist and who’s an innocent civilian?

        “There was no problem identifying them. The terrorists wore orange life vests, protective vests, and gas masks. All of them were equipped with cold arms. This is not what innocent peace activists look like.”

        http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4218728,00.html

        • Jay Knott June 26, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

          The heroes of the Mavi Marmara were armed with knives they’d grabbed from the galley when the world’s fourth most powerful military attacked their civilian ship in international waters.

          If they’d been armed with nuclear weapons, it would have been entirely justified.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 8:27 am #

            Nuclear weapon or knife, makes no diffrence the second a soldier’s life is in danger by a person holding a deadly weapon and shows the intention to use it. He has every right to do whatever it takes to neutralize the attacker.

        • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 26, 2012 at 6:49 pm #

          I admire your perseverance, cosmo, but fail to understand why you bother with these people only to be harassed by the likes of Jay who buys all the Palestinian lies and thinks he can spot logical “inconsistencies” in truth.
          They don’t even understand Purity of Arms, which means purity of purpose: if you suspect there is even just one terrorist in a building, you drop a bomb on it. Simple. The others in it may be so-called civilians but if they hang around with terrorists they choose their fate.
          The same with the ship. Identify, shmidentify! They were in international waters headed for Gaza–a direct threat to Israel. Case closed.

        • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 5:06 am #

          Are you mad? Everyone on the ship put on lifevests after being surrounded by Israeli war ships it was a sensible thing to do. The cold arms being wooden sticks, metal rods and kitchen knives to protect the vessel from invasion and to protect the women and child on board is fair enough is it not?
          Only Israelis shoot a man holding a camera in the head and call him terrorist.
          What do you believe these imagined terrorists had as an agenda when they reached Gaza?

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 8:23 am #

            I believe that the UN already established the fact the blockade was legal so according to international law Israel had the right stop any blockade defying ship the second it left the port. When a soldier is in a life threatening situation attacked by deadly arms be a knife or a gun he should shoot to kill.
            IDF soldier were shot with live ammo as well.
            Do you really think that the Al Qaeda funding IHH care about women and children? They were only at risk because of the IHH violent attack. No one was harmed on any of the other ships.

          • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 9:00 am #

            There was no live ammunition on the Mavi Marmara so that is a lie and for sure if there had been it would have been shown by Israel in the news.

            You are entirely correct when you say that the Israeli soldier had the right to defend himself and so did the Turks and tell me just what was the Israeli soldier doing on our boat in International waters? We had a right to self defence. The fact is that we could have killed Israeli soldiers but did not because we were humanitarians

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 9:56 am #

            There was live ammunition both from guns taken from soldiers and other weapons. Few Israeli soldiers had gun shot wounds you can read about it in the link I already posted. It have been shown in the Israeli news. The IDF report also show that bullets by a weapon not used by the IDF were found on board. Photos of IHH holding guns published in Israeli papers.
            International waters makes no diffrence according to the law, as long as the ship is not in a 3rd country’s water it is legal to stop the ship every step along the way after it have been established that it was on it’s way to break a blockade.

            http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2aM5W9OlWHg/Te4rNkQ3R9I/AAAAAAAAESk/vzHUq-2oo8Q/s640/mavi1.jpg

            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SfttwamhXjk/Te4rGAH1KGI/AAAAAAAAESc/SFmXYc9g4YM/s640/mavi3.jpg

          • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 10:04 am #

            There were no bullet wounds and no guns and no bullets. I saw the captured Israeli soldiers there were brought to the area where I was treated wounded passengers.

            No Guns No Bullets No Bullet Wounds

            The Israeli soldiers boarding a ship in International waters are going to meet resistance and the passengers had a right to self defence.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 10:45 am #

            Did you preform surgery on the knee of the IDF soldier to see if there was a bullet in it? or on the soldier shot in the stomach?

            Eiland’s probe also found that shots were initially fired at the boarding commandos from weapons that the passengers had brought with them. The slug that was dislodged from the knee of one of the soldiers was of a different caliber than that used by the navy.

            And then, while sustaining the blows, A. felt a burning sensation piercing through his body. “At first, I didn’t get it,” he recounted this week for the first time. “I placed my hand on my stomach and didn’t quite understand what was going on. Five seconds later I again placed my hand there, and felt my entire finger sinking in. All of that was happening while the terrorists were not letting go and fighting me.”
            “I told myself: ‘Damnit, I was hit by a live bullet”

            http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=181182

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 10:09 am #

            The men of the Marmara are even more heroic than I thought. According to our informer, Cosmo, they managed to disarm some of the Jewish racist murderers attacking their boat, and actually shoot some of them. However, you can’t trust an ‘IDF report’ on their own action. I doubt if there were bullets on board – it doesn’t make sense – activists know they can’t overcome the world’s fourth most powerful military by force. But if the convoy had been armed with guns, torpedoes and rockets, it would have been justified.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 10:49 am #

            I doesn’t really that hard for a mob armed with bats iron bars and what not to overcome a soldier while descending by rope and has both hands on it. That powerful army was holding paintball guns thinking the people on board were peaceful.

          • Roy Bard June 27, 2012 at 11:59 am #

            “That powerful army was holding paintball guns thinking the people on board were peaceful.”

            You a fiction writer now Cosmo?

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 12:17 pm #

            The soldiers were holding paintball guns in their hands while descending that is an established fact. Only when they realized how violent the IHH members were and the fact their and their friends lives were at risk did they start using their side arm pistols.

          • Roy Bard June 27, 2012 at 1:18 pm #

            “Only when they realized how violent the IHH members were”

            Yup – what were the names of all the IDF soldiers who died again?

            Google seems to only have the names of the Turkish men who were killed by the IDF, which boarded the ship in international waters knowing full well that the people on board would resist, as they had already resisted attempts to board from sea borne craft.

            Your lies are so boring and unconvincing Cosmo

          • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 12:27 pm #

            The soldiers had no right to be on the ship full stop. Cosmo you haven’t told me how it is so called self defence to shoot men from the back or to shoot a camera man between the eyes when he is neither attacking nor has a weapon.

            I really don’t think that the ships Captain invited a team of commandoes on the boat for a paintball party.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 6:00 pm #

            Roy Bard, There were mistakes made by the IDF and soldiers shouldn’t have been put in such a risk. A soldier will not be holding his painball gun if he knew what was coming at him once he hit the deck.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 6:14 pm #

            You can’t really be saying you can’t shoot a person in the back can you?
            Someone rushes at your friend holding a knife yelling Allahu Akbar you can only shoot him after you change the angle so that you shoot him from the front? You have 4 people around you hitting you with axes bars and knives you manage to sweep the guy which charged at you with an axe to the floor, he has his face to the ground but still holding the axe and will get up in a second to cut you in half with it, you need for him to turn around stand up and only then shoot him for it to be self defence?
            You don’t really know what that man was really doing, but even if lets say he was not taking part in the attack, in the situation the soldiers were in charged at from all directions, if you are aiming what could look like a gun you might get shot.
            So if the commandoes had no right to be on the ship what other solution was there? To allow the ships to sail into Gaza unchecked? And how about the following week when a few more ships would try and reach Gaza from Turkey, if the Captain doesn’t invite Israel they could also sail free, the following week ships from Iran, Israel can’t check them either?

          • fool me once... June 27, 2012 at 10:13 am #

            @Cosmo
            “When a soldier is in a life threatening situation attacked by deadly arms be a knife or a gun he should shoot to kill.”
            NO this is complete nonsense. You were not attacked. It was the israeli’s who did the attacking. Ask yourself, what were you doing, creeping around in the dark, climbing on someone else’s boat in a threatening manner?
            Surely it would have been better to approach the Mavi Marmara during daylight, in a sensible civilised manner and requested permission to come aboard. If permission were granted, two or three unarmed israeli representatives could be shown around and everyone could then peacefully get about their business.
            But no, you set about intimidating and threatening people, trying to dominate them and ending up killing people – shame on you!
            Take off the persecuted paranoid jew hat you wear and tell me you are proud of yourself. It’s time to grow up Cosmo and start thinking for yourself.
            Sometimes reading your comments I feel you do have serious doubts about israel’s modus oporandi. Be brave and find your humanity, before it’s too late.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9m7_1bCT1kc

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 11:02 am #

            IDF made attempts to ask the ship to bring their goods though Egypt or Ashdod. Ask yourself why would a humanitarian mission refuse such an offer? They were looking for an armed conflict for their PR war.IDF went at night because it thought it would be easier and quicker to get a hold of the ship with minimum friction while most people are in the lower decks sleeping. If they would have gone in at daylight while civilians were on the high deck you would be hear claiming why didn’t they come in at night, they only went during the day to maximize civilian casualties.

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 11:16 am #

            Some South African white people thought of themselves as victims. They’d been persecuted by the British Empire (in the Boer war), and they bravely fought communism and African backwardness. But they got over it.

            There’s nothing like Jewish victimology. It says Israel was a response to the holocaust. The 6 day war was started by the Arabs. Dropping cluster bombs and phosphorus on children is self-defense. Attacking a civilian ship, it’s because it was ‘looking for armed conflict’. Gilad’s critique of Jewish identity is as much about saving Jews from chutzpah as anything else.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 12:10 pm #

            Everything you say about Jewish victimology you can multiply when it comes to Palestinian sense of victimhood.

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 12:26 pm #

            The difference is that the Palestinian sense of victimhood is true.

          • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 11:34 am #

            Why should we go through Israel? Building materials which was the cargo on the cargo ships had not been allowed into Gaza for years leaving the Gazans camping out in tents in the rubble of their homes. Egypt only allowed medical aid through Rafah so it is entirely logical to try to take building materials to Gaza, the siege and naval blockade is not legal according to many sources. Israel had no right to make the assumption that ships whose contents and passengers had been through strict security in the Turkish ports would be carrying any weapons and indeed they weren’t. Anyway, the reality is that the murderous actions by the IDF against unarmed civilian humanitarians lost them any credibility and brought the reality of the IDF’s believe that they can murder at will to the worlds attention. Personally the fact that I was taken from International waters at gunpoint and imprisoned in Israel where I was never intending to go and then asked to sign a paper declaring that I knew I had entered Israel illegally and accept deportation was a lesson for me in just how out of touch with reality the Israelis are, possibly they actually believe their own lies.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 12:09 pm #

            But there was no aid on the Mavi Marmara was there? Building matirial was and does enter Gaza on UN projects just not to Hamas. The point of the flotila was to set a precedent in which Israel is not allowed to examine the content of ships entering Gaza, so that future arm shipments from Iran Syria Libya and so on could enter Gaza and supply their terrorist regime of Hamas with weapons to murder Israeli civilians. Israel has not just right but an obligation to make sure terrorists won’t be armed with rockets.

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 12:32 pm #

            More victimology. Poor Israelis, bombarded with missiles from the people they drove from their homeland. Jewish victimology claims victimhood whether Jews are really victims, or the ones doing the victimizing. Because of this, we look back at history and ask “were Jews really always victims, as we are taught?”. The Palestinians didn’t travel around the world, aggressively promoting their specialness, like Jews did.

          • Cosmo June 27, 2012 at 5:55 pm #

            Poor Palestinians all they wanted was a simple dream to exterminate the Jews.
            Nothing like the old Rabbit, why aren’t you wearing a hat joke. Jews evicted from their own land having to wonder around the world, why don’t you go back to Palestine. Jews going back to Palestine why didn’t you stay in Europe.
            Promoting specialness huh? Well that seems like a good enough reason to abuse a people. How exactly were they aggressively promoting?

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 6:19 pm #

            How did Jews aggressively promote ‘specialness’? Well, for a start off, teaching their children that they are ‘the chosen people’ BY RACE rather than just by religion, like Muslims and Christians. And hypocritically condemning ‘racism’ in others.

            Then there’s organizing to defend Jewish ethnic interests, even if they conflict with the interests of the majority, and doing it well. And always claiming to be ‘victims’, even this is working.

            Today’s Western societies clearly illustrate this – the subordination of gentile interests to Jewish interests in foreign policy, backed up by Jewish power in the political and communication systems.

            The Palestinians weren’t aggressive enough in resisting the Jews.

  14. Jonathon Blakeley June 26, 2012 at 8:04 pm #

  15. who_me June 26, 2012 at 9:17 pm #

    from this it sounds like turkey will support the terrorists, rather than openly invade or attack syria:

    http://www.rt.com/news/syrian-troops-target-erdogan-763/

    but vor is saying there are turkish troops headed for the syrian border:

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_06_26/79399166/

    so who knows.

    what i’m wondering is what turkish soldiers would think of attacking syria and how they feel about their government now being on the side of the israeli-american terrorists who run the pkk terrorist ops against turkey.

  16. searching June 26, 2012 at 11:12 pm #

    things are speeding up.
    “…On Tuesday evening, the Times of Israel reported:

    Large numbers of Turkish troops — including at least 15 long-range artillery pieces and tanks – moved to the Syrian frontier from the eastern city of Diyarbakir.
    A video published by the Turkish Cihan News Agency showed Turkish tanks being transported by carrier trucks toward the frontier..”.

    http://www.infowars.com/turkey-mobilizes-for-war-with-syria/

    • who_me June 27, 2012 at 2:04 am #

      is turkey doing an israel? moving troops as a provacation so they can claim any syrian troop move in response is an intent to attack turkey. and use that as a pretense for aggression against syria?

    • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 5:13 am #

      Diyakbakir is a Kurdish city it would not be anything unusual for the Turks to have troops in that area. There is simply no evidence that Turkey wants to attack Syria except in your over active imagination, Syria Turkey and Iran were working very well together they had scrapped visas to open up the borders. Syria is or was full of Turks running businesses there or working and Turks and Syrians are very inter married the border was not always there. Turkey is not an aggressive country but reading this website they are made to sound evil.
      The Kurdish region of Iraq is full of Israeli businesses and the Israelis have been busy buying up land and property there for years and have no doubt been helping the Turkish Kurds to make trouble as well.

      • who_me June 27, 2012 at 5:46 am #

        “Diyakbakir is a Kurdish city it would not be anything unusual for the Turks to have troops in that area. There is simply no evidence that Turkey wants to attack Syria except in your over active imagination, Syria Turkey and Iran were working very well together they had scrapped visas to open up the borders. Syria is or was full of Turks running businesses there or working and Turks and Syrians are very inter married the border was not always there. Turkey is not an aggressive country but reading this website they are made to sound evil.”

        maybe it’s time to pop that bubble and have a look around you.

        • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 8:09 am #

          I do not need to pop anything you are just ignorant and want to deny Syrian people basic human rights seeing everything as a zionist plot. Turkey doesn’t do Americas or Israel’s bidding.

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 9:56 am #

            Laura – I’m not sure you understand the methodology used here. What you do is, assume everything is a Zionist plot. Then, accumulate evidence for it, and ignore evidence against it.

            Example:
            – Israel doesn’t like the Syrian government
            – Israel has great influence in the USA
            – The USA is the head of NATO
            – Turkey is a member of NATO

            Therefore, if there is a conflict between Turkey and Syria, Turkey is doing Israel’s bidding. And if you doubt it, it’s because you’ve been taken in by Zionist propaganda. Or you’re a hasbara troll.

          • Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 10:06 am #

            Yes I see what you mean Jay. I obviously lack the wit to see how simple it all really is.

          • who_me June 27, 2012 at 6:29 pm #

            …andrew mathis wasn’t a zionist, according to you.

            still talking out of both sides of your mouth, jay knott.

          • Jay Knott June 27, 2012 at 7:17 pm #

            Mathis IS a Zionist, according to me: http://tinyurl.com/dxbf4vk

            I was wrong. The method is not “accumulate evidence for it, and ignore evidence against it”. You just INVENT the evidence you need.

          • who_me June 27, 2012 at 8:39 pm #

            Jay Knott

            June 27, 2012 at 7:17 pm

            Mathis IS a Zionist, according to me:

            you specifically told me flat out on this forum that mathis wasn’t zionist and you know that. you even admitted as much in past conversations. you even admit in your link you initially thought he wasn’t zionist. later, such as at the time you wrote that post in that link, you changed your mind about mathis’ zionism. by then you had no choice if you didn’t want to look like a complete idiot, or a similar tool defending a fellow ziotool. you also claimed the boy wasn’t writing hasbara and wrote at length defending him on that account. whatever your reasons for defending mathis, it is clear you are also a liar.

          • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 27, 2012 at 8:58 pm #

            1. Do you think it is impossible for other people to change their minds? (I say “other” because your apparent grudges seem to have very long lives and I am probably earning more grudge points with this post)
            2. Do you think you can always see through people and know the motivations of their changes of opinion?
            3. Do you think you can lower the thermostat of your personal attacks?

          • Jonathon Blakeley June 27, 2012 at 11:20 pm #

            @whome
            I have met Jay recently, He is not a Zionist or a liar, he is a cool guy. Its easy to misread people sometimes on comments and email. You should give him slack.

          • who_me June 27, 2012 at 11:32 pm #

            he was asking for it with this post:

            Jay Knott

            June 27, 2012 at 9:56 am

            nobody was calling Laura Stuart a hasbara. i took it personally he was twisting my comments to make it look like i that was what i insinuated. that’s dishonest and he knew it. i consider such slander a personal attack.

          • Jonathon Blakeley June 27, 2012 at 11:54 pm #

            None of us have a monopoly on truth, we all do our best, to express the inexpressible. Its often in the mistakes that the light shine brightest, and through deliberation error can be corrected and understanding assimilated.

          • Jonathon Blakeley June 27, 2012 at 11:57 pm #

            he was taking the P155, dry humour can get misread so easy.

          • who_me June 28, 2012 at 12:11 am #

            “he was taking the P155, dry humour can get misread so easy.”

            ok, i really don’t have anything personal against knott. don’t have anything for him, either. ;) most of the time, i find his posts irrelavent or naive, so i don’t do much more than skim. after his article attacking 9/11 skeptics, which was basically substance-free ad hominim, i wrote him off as someone worth spending time on.

          • Jay Knott June 28, 2012 at 8:31 am #

            “i find his posts irrelavent or naive”. I find HIS posts abusive, illiterate, and dependent on random selections of Youtube videos, rather than serious research. The one positive feature of who_me’s posts is they expose the circular, Stalinist logic of ‘9/11 truth’ – you explain away why people disagree rather than answering them.

          • who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:52 pm #

            Jay Knott

            June 28, 2012 at 8:31 am

            “i find his posts irrelavent or naive”. I find HIS posts abusive, illiterate, and dependent on random selections of Youtube videos, rather than serious research. The one positive feature of who_me’s posts is they expose the circular, Stalinist logic of ’9/11 truth’ – you explain away why people disagree rather than answering them.”

            don’t take it so hard, it’s not like were married, or anything. :D

            (btw, i’m not a stalinist, i’m a satanist – you can ask searching and she show you the proof)

  17. who_me June 27, 2012 at 2:02 am #

    http://www.rt.com/news/russia-halts-syria-s300-contract-822/

    Russia halts plans to supply S-300 missile system to Syria – reports

    “The report also says that deliveries on the Syrian contract are expected to be made between 2012 and 2013. But ‘Vedomosti’ claims two separate sources, who chose to remain anonymous, have said deliveries have been put on the back-burner “after a direct order from above.”

    It’s unclear whether these reports are true, but many are already speculating on the potential reasons for such a step. Some have suggested that Moscow has decided to placate Washington and Tel Aviv, drawing parallels between this situation and the one back in 2010, when Russia cancelled its contract for the same missile system with Iran.”

    i have this uncomfortable deja vu feeling. is russia going to abandon syria like they did libya? it seems more than a coincidence that this news comes out the day after putin met with the israelis. backroom deals? orders from the zioboss? disinformation? if true, there is a possibility the leakers are unhappy about the betrayal and want to make sure it gets connected to israel in russian minds. or maybe the leakers were the usual zionist gloaters who love rubbing it in when pet goys kiss their butt and are unable to restrain their glee? if the news is true, whatever putin got for this betrayal, i doubt it will be worth it, just like the libya betrayal wasn’t worth it. for russian interests, i mean, it’s obviously not worth it to the people on the ground to get slaughtered and become slaves of jewish zionism. each loss of an ally hurts russia in the long run, whatever short term gain traded for wont make up for that fact. each time russia fails to deliver, they lose respect in the international community. who wants to do business with someone who doesn’t follow through on the deal? who wants a serial betrayer for an ally?

    in ww2, the soviets went along with the nazi europe carve-up to buy time. if the russians are doing the same now, they are fast running out of countries they can sacrifice to the ziofascist parasite.

  18. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 27, 2012 at 2:23 am #

    Unlike the US, Russia only does what it perceives to be in its interests but unless there is something important we don’t know (like Russia being a lot weaker than generally assumed), Russia did seem to seriously either misperceive its interest over Libya or misread the US lies about the “no-fly zone and nothing else.”

    If they do this again with Syria they will indeed lose big in more than one way.
    If they do not back off because they were bluffing to start with and they lack the cojones, then the other alternative is that Israel promised them something big.
    What could be worth turning the Mediterranean into a jewish lake?
    Israel can promise them just about anything Putin may want out of the US. Netanyahu would call AIPAC and an AIPAC receptionist would call Obama.
    Has Putin noticed that they don’t even keep their word?
    Maybe Peres looked in Putin’s eyes, like Dubya and saw his soul… or saw a “tell” and knew how to play his cards.

  19. who_me June 27, 2012 at 3:43 am #

    more info. turkish armour at the border:

    http://www.rt.com/news/turkey-deploys-tanks-syria-831/

    brits openly operating amoung the terrorists:

    http://www.rt.com/news/damascus-battle-uk-forces-syria-768/

    • who_me June 27, 2012 at 3:48 am #

      un buggers off:

      http://www.rt.com/news/un-monitors-syria-mission-828/

      turkey stages provacation. israel possibly buys/threatens off russians. zionist puppets in usa and europe sing threats in chorus. media 100% on script. merc. terrorists in syria start new offensive.

      this was a coordinated operation from the beginning. if syria had not shot down the f4, turkey or israel probably would have and blamed syria.

  20. who_me June 27, 2012 at 6:05 am #

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/putin-between-state-meetings-tours-israel/

    “Putin arrived in Jerusalem’s Old City at 1:30 am Tuesday, and made his third visit to the Western Wall, a yarmulke on his head, commenting on the deep Jewish connection to the holy site: “You can see how the Jewish past is engraved in the stones of Jerusalem.”

    it seems to be some sort of humiliating frat initiation ritual that zionist jews insist their goys must pass upon visiting israel, everytime they visit israel.

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm #

      What would happen if once, just once, a foreign dignitary refused to don the yarmulke, or was sporting a cross around his neck? Would they react like Drakula upon seeing the cross? :-)

  21. who_me June 27, 2012 at 6:57 am #

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/06/turkish-jet-was-in-syrian-territory-flying-very-low-when-shot-down.html

    claimed video footage of the shoot down. cant really see anything, but the audio does support the syrian claim that only the cannon fired. one can hear the cannon and there is no visual of any sort of missile, which should have been visible if one were fired. the one area where the journalist got it wrong is the speed of the aircraft, and therefore the reaction time. an f-4 at that altatude can not fly mach 2, mach 2 is the high altatude speed, where the atmosphere is much less dense, their speed at sea level maxes out around mach 1 or perhaps a little higher. it doesn’t change the reality on the ground that the syrians had little time to respond, and no time to attempt contact with the aircraft, even if that were possible, which is highly unlikely, anyway.

    anyone fool enough to make a low altitude, high speed pass over the borders of a nation involved in a war should expect to be shot at. any country failing to shoot at such an aircraft is letting itself in for a stealth attack. remember, israel already did this when they attacked syria a couple of years agao and claimed to be attacking a reactor. if syria tolerated this a 2nd time, well…

  22. Laura Stuart June 27, 2012 at 9:43 am #

    It is not a war it is an armed uprising.

  23. who_me June 27, 2012 at 5:50 pm #

    this article provides a timeline of events in the ziofascist war against the syrian people:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=31628

    The U.S. and Syria: Facts you should know

    “The following timeline reviews the progression of U.S.-NATO intervention in Syria and counteracts the Big Lie in the corporate media aimed at preparing open imperialist military aggression against the Syrian people.”

  24. who_me June 27, 2012 at 6:33 pm #

    this article provides some additiona useful info about the turkish mission the f-4 was on when it got shot down, especially tha last quoted para about iskenderun:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/06/27/syria-and-the-phantom/

    “It is doubtful that Syria indentified exactly what the Turkish plane was, just that an unidentified warplane, flying low—generally the altitude one takes when trying to avoid radar—was in Syrian airspace. Paranoia? In 2007 Israeli warplanes—US-made F-16s, not Phantoms—slipped through Syria’s radar net and bombed a suspected nuclear reactor.

    Even if Syria identified the plane as a Phantom, they could have taken it for an Israeli craft. Israel was the number one foreign user of F-4s, although they retired them in 2004. Indeed, the Turkish Phantom might even have begun life as an Israeli warplane.

    If the Syrians are on hair-trigger alert, one can hardly blame them. The US, the European Union (EU), and NATO openly admit they are gunning to bring down the Assad regime. Turkey is actively aiding the Free Syrian Army organize cross-border raids into Syria, and it is helping Saudi Arabia and Qatar supply arms and ammunition to the rebels.

    For Turkey to send a warplane into Syrian airspace—or even near the Syrian border—on a radar mapping expedition at this moment was either remarkably provocative or stone stupid. The explanation could be more sinister, however.

    NATO has established a command and control center in Iskenderun, Turkey, near the Syrian border, that is training and organizing the Free Syrian Army. It surely has a sophisticated setup for tapping into Syrian electronic transmissions and, of course, radar networks. If NATO eventually decides to directly intervene in Syria, the alliance will need those electronic maps. NATO aircraft easily overwhelmed Libya’s anti-aircraft systems, but Syria’s are considerably more sophisticated and dangerous.”

  25. Jonathon Blakeley June 27, 2012 at 6:57 pm #

    This just in….

  26. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 27, 2012 at 10:49 pm #

    Pepe Escobar:
    Davutoglu, in a Turkish media blitzkrieg, as reported by Today’s Zaman, reiterated this was a “solo flight”; the jet was “unarmed”; there was no warning before it was shot down; and as for Syria trying to connect the “not ill-intentioned violation” of its airspace to the shooting of the F-4, that was “irrelevant”.

    Violation of another country’s air space, trying to avoid its defenses by flying at low altitude, is as normal to Davutoglu as a sheesh kebab for lunch; “There were many violations of Syrian air space by other countries before. But Syria shot down our unarmed plane.”

    But then the foreign minister started deviating (or not) from the script. He stressed, “No matter how the downed Turkish jet saga unfolds, we will always stand by [the] Syrian people”. And this; “We will always stand by Syrian people until the advent of a democratic regime there.” Forget about the F-4 Phantom; the “Syrian people” may sleep soundly because the heart of the matter remains regime change.

    So according to Davutoglu’s story the F-4 was briefly deviated to Syrian airspace by some irresistible force (Thor?); soon realized its mistake; left in a hurry; but then was shot down. By the way, it was not a “solo flight”; witnesses told Turkish TV they saw two low-flying fighter jets speed by in the direction of Syrian waters, but only one return.

    As predictably as England being kicked out of Euro 2012, the usual European warmongering poodles of the William Hague kind have already stepped in, blaming Syria because Turkey violated Syrian airspace. Yet there’s no evidence – so far – that Ankara warned the Syrian government and military they would be conducting some sort of reconnaissance very close to a by now very explosive border.

    Whether the F-4 (or the pair of F-4s) was armed or not is, to quote Davutoglu, “irrelevant”; try telling the Pentagon, for instance, that an unknown, low-flying, fast-moving, unidentified object entering your air space is not a threat. If this was a military reconnaissance mission, as Davutoglu himself argues, the F-4 had to be armed.

    And imagine if this was a Syrian jet flying over Turkish or Israeli territory.

  27. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 27, 2012 at 11:51 pm #

    How come in all the indignant shouts From Turkey there is no mention of a pilot anywhere. Was that a drone?

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 12:03 am #

      several others have mentioned that, at, the turks and their masters don’t seem concerned at all about the pilots. initially, there was garbled stories about them being rescued or captured. then nothing after those stories proved false. it could be the turkish language press is covering the pilot angle, but the jewish run western media isn’t. which would make sense, given the usual jewish supremacism in that media that holds muslims as subhuman and couldn’t care less about muslim lives.

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 12:20 am #

        I don’t know… I find it hard to believe that Turkey would have howled loudly if a pilot had died. Nopilot is mentioned in the Turkish press, nor in any of Davidoglou’s or Erdogan’s recent speeches. The only explanation I can think of is that it was a drone sent to test syria’s responses.
        Turkey is working on getting Russia in the fold as well:

        From Hürriyet:
        Turkey and Russia have agreed to work together to shed light on Syria’s shooting down of a Turkish reconnaissance jet in international waters, a day after Moscow described the attack as “unintentional and not provocative,” obviously challenging Ankara’s technical findings on the incident.

        Turkey repeated once again that it had no intention of attacking Syria, a country it described as a “rogue state,” but vowed that it would “respond to any hostile act in the strongest terms.”

        Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan called Russian President Vladimir Putin yesterday to share the information collected by the Turkish military and intelligence on how the attack occurred on June 22.
        The office of the prime minister said Erdoğan had called Putin yesterday to discuss the incident. “Putin expressed his deep sorrow over the incident during the talk … Our prime minister and Mr. Putin have agreed to stay in touch for an immediate and full clarification of the incident,” a statement from Erdoğan’s office read.

        The call came just a day after the Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Alexander Lukashevich urged restraint on both Turkey and Syria, and underlined that Russia believes it “is important to not consider this incid;ent as a provocation or an intentional act.”

        Erdoğan publicly criticized the Russian spokesman’s statement late Tuesday, accusing Moscow of using Damascus’ language over the incident and saying that this statement was different to what Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov had told Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu in a phone conversation over the weekend.

        Ankara has proven that its F4-E jet was downed by Syria 13 nautical miles off the Syrian coast in international waters, while Damascus insists that the incident took place in its airspace. Echoing his Tuesday statement, in which he described Syria as a “clear and present danger” to Turkey’s security and said that the Turkish military had amended its rules of engagement, Erdoğan yesterday described Turkey’s southern neighbor as a “rogue state.”

  28. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 12:20 am #

    Correction: I find it hard to believe that Turkey would NOT have howled

  29. who_me June 28, 2012 at 12:29 am #

    the f-4 is an old, obsolete aircraft and would be an ideal aircraft to sacrifice as a radio controlled drone. witnesses have claimed seeing 2 aircraft leave turk airspace, but only one return. it’s possible the f-4 was converted to rc and used to test syrian defences while the 2nd aircraft was the control aircraft and stayed outside syrian airspace. this might explain the lack of parachute or sign of ejection from the aircraft.

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 12:35 am #

      here is a couple of videos showing pilot sucessful ejections.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm0bQwlUTsU

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeD5J7DX5s

      note the planes can be right above the ground, they don’t need to be high up in the air. if the turkish pilots had not been killed or the mechanism damaged by the aaa, they should have ejected. if there were pilots.

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 12:51 am #

        IF in either case ONE mention, anywhere at all? None. I looked at Turkish papers vaviab;le in English: ioc!

  30. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 12:52 am #

    Woudn’t the ejected pilot have a story to tell on all TV channels–how he was flying peacefully in international airspace, etc?

  31. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 12:59 am #

    Syria is also testing Turkey, but psychologically… Turkey must have conniptions over this: (from Turkish newsp. Zaman):

    “Syria, already experiencing tense relations with Turkey after downing a Turkish military jet last week, is turning a blind eye to the outlawed Kurdistan Workers’ Party’s (PKK) raising a Kurdistan flag in a Syrian town, disregarding the disturbance it would cause in Turkey.
    The PKK has hoisted the flag in the Syrian town of Ayn-al Arab, close to Mürşitpınar village in Şanlıurfa’s Suruç district. The 15-meter-high flag, raised on a hill, is visible with the naked eye from Turkey.

    There is a Syrian flag flying 200 meters away from the Kurdistan flag.

    One resident of Mürşitpınar, N.Y., says that it is nothing less insolence towards Turkey for the flag to be flown on the highest hill in the region.

    “From the outbreak of popular unrest in Syria we have already known that the terrorist organization was very close to us. But is not the flying of a PKK flag on the highest hill in the region with the support of the Syrian regime an act of defiance against Turkey?” said N.Y.”

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 1:12 am #

      a thought.

      the pkk is an israeli operated terrorist org. it would be just like israel to have the pkk fly such a flag in sight of the turkish border to stir up further trouble between turkey and syria. israel wants war between turkey and syria.

  32. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 1:35 am #

    SHAME ON GREECE!
    How much lower can they sink? Like lowest-rung lackeys they are given dirty little tasks they can be trusted to carry out:

    Greek Cypriot authorities reportedly briefly detained the Iranian foreign minister after he arrived in Nicosia International Airport, a news report claimed.
    Quoting Greek Cypriot media, TRT Türk reported that Ali Akbar Salehi, who is visiting Greek Cyprus upon the invitation of his Greek Cypriot counterpart, was arrested by authorities in the airport on charges of being on the European Union’s list of “unwanted persons.” The airport’s anti-terrorism office later released the Iranian foreign minister after Greek Cyprus’ Foreign Ministry and foreign minister became involved in the issue.

    Reports also said the scandal caused temporary tension, but that the mistake was fixed after Greek Cypriot Foreign Minister Erato Kozaku Markulli demanded the release of his Iranian counterpart.

    Greek Cypriot media outlets noted that the Iranian minister, who was also the head of Iran’s Atomic Energy Agency, had been blacklisted by the EU and could only enter the country after receiving special permission from the Greek Cypriot foreign minister.

    Markulli reportedly told airport authorities that Salehi’s name was taken off the “unwanted persons” list in 2010 after he was appointed Iran’s foreign minister. The media also reported that Greek Cyprus has offered an official apology to Iran, citing a “misunderstanding” and “mishandling” of the situation by airport authorities.

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 1:47 am #

      that’s what happens when a country becomes an israeli gofer. the greek goldman sachs engineered debt was no accident. it was jewish israeli take over. a little investigation of the cypriot debt will probably show similar jewish israeli corruption.

    • Laura Stuart June 28, 2012 at 2:00 am #

      How much lower can they sink?

      They plumbed the depths last year when they prevented the boats of the flotilla to Gaza from leaving their ports.

      I don’t associate such an action with the Greek people who are very supportive of the Palestinians – must be rotten and corrupt leaders.

  33. who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:02 am #

    what the turkish political parties are saying:

    http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2012/06/advancing-ball-for-war-on-syria.html

    “Kemal Kilicdaroglu, head of Turkey’s main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP), wants diplomacy, not force, used. So do Nationalist Movement Party (MHP) and Peace for Democracy Party (BDP) leaders.

    MHP’s Devlet Bahceli said Ankara shouldn’t “fall into a trap of intervention in Syria. Some western countries have put pressure on Turkey for an intervention….”

    He urged “appropriate steps for Turkey’s national interests” be taken short of “instigat(ing) fresh conflict in the region.”

    BDP co-chairman Selahittin Demirtas also opposes military intervention. So does BDP deputy group chairman Hasip Kaplan, saying:

    “If any resolution (for it comes) to the Parliament, we will oppose it.”

    Demirtas said attacking Syria risks regional war. Turkey should avoid it. “The government should give this clear message to the world.”

    Turkey’s Communist Party blamed Erdogan’s government for Friday’s incident. In a press release it said:

    “This behavior is a dirty game played by the Turkish government supported by the USA and Israel. It is not the first provocative move made by the Turkish government.”

    CHP member Kamer Genc said he trusts nothing Erdogan’s government says. “First we have to know why the warplane went there and who ordered it,” he added.

    He holds Erdogan and other ruling Justice and Development Party (JDP) leaders responsible for Friday’s incident.”

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:06 am #

      the syrians have located and examined the plane’s wreckage, apparently:

      “Syria’s Foreign Ministry spokesman Jihad Makdessi called Turkey’s action a blatant violation of Syrian sovereignty and international law.

      He accused Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu of making baseless and inaccurate statements. His account contradicts the facts.

      Ankara’s aircraft lawlessly violated Syrian airspace. Land-based anti-aircraft fire downed it. Their maximum range is 2.5 km. Syrian waters extend 12 nautical miles.

      Wreckage found had holes consistent with machine gun fire, not missiles. Evidence proves Davutoglu lied. So did Erdogan and other JDP officials.

      Makdessi added that machine gun weapons don’t use radar. Visual confirmation alone detects threats. Incoming aircraft were spotted from 1 – 2 km from Syria’s coastline. They flew 100 meters off the ground at a speed of 800 kph.”

      the speed is in line with what an f-4 can do low down, as opposed to other articles quoting the high altitude optimal speed of the aircraft. this aircraft being essentially an airbourne slug.

  34. who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:39 am #

    remember the video i posted earlier that is claimed to be of the turkish f-4 being shot down?

    here is more info on the video and the circumstances surrounding it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o20bM4mh_c

    “I Talk to Dr. Ali Mohamad Editor in chief of http://www.syria-tribune.com/en/ that can verify the authenticity a video showing the moment the The turkish F-4 was shot down.”

    she also has a better still posted from the video showing the plane:

    http://s1173.photobucket.com/albums/r597/Syriangirl/?action=view&current=599633_10151052018183126_1126178895_n.jpg

  35. who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:51 am #

    http://www.rt.com/news/syria-tv-massacre-sanctions-858/

    “Syrian Information Minister Omran al-Zoubi put the responsibility for killing of seven TV staffers on the EU, Arab and International organizations. He called it “the worst massacre against journalism and the freedom of media.”

    but that’s ok, it’s not like iran aligned muslims killed jews or christians working at a zionist jewish owned western media facility.

  36. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 4:23 pm #

    More news, more mystery!
    The Turkish government must have heard my lonely complaint about the lack of any mention of the pilots and answered it:

    “Helmets Found But No Pilots, Mystery Deepens in Plane Crash

    Search teams have reportedly found the boots and helmets belonging to two Turkish aviators whose plane was shot down by Syrian forces last week, but there’s still no sign of the pilots themselves.
    Top Turkish officials announced today the helmets were found among the two-seat Air Force plane’s wreckage, Turkey’s prominent Hurriyet Daily reported. No parachutes have been found but the flyers’ boots were discovered days before, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said.
    Erdogan said it was unclear whether the pilots had been able to eject before the plane went down.”

    I think there were indeed pilots and I think they ejected.
    I think they disrobed before ejecting figuring the boots and helmets would make it hard to swim. Since no underwear was found it is safe to presume by the time they ejected they were at least, you know, “decent.”

    • who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:32 pm #

      “Search teams have reportedly found the boots and helmets belonging to two Turkish aviators whose plane was shot down by Syrian forces last week, but there’s still no sign of the pilots themselves.”

      what? no wrist watches? either israelis got to the site first, or these pilots were very unprepared for their historic flight.

      • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 8:44 pm #

        “what? no wrist watches? either israelis got to the site first, or these pilots were very unprepared for their historic flight.”

        There you go again. Mean and hasty to generalize and stereotype.
        Just because SOME israelis stole the laptops, cameras, watches, cash and credits cards of the volunteers they had to attack (Israel’s security was at stake) on those boats, does not mean ALL IDF/MOSAD/Shinbet are thieves and scavengers.

  37. who_me June 28, 2012 at 6:55 pm #

    it’s looking more and more like at’s idea that the shot down plane was a “drone” is correct:

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/downed-jet-was-flying-with-another-plane-chp-deputy-.aspx?pageID=238&nID=24217&NewsCatID=338

    “A Turkish jet downed June 22 was flying in tandem with another aircraft when Syrian forces took it down, according to Republican People Party (CHP) deputy Orhan Düzgün.

    Düzgün demanded that the government reveal the nationality of the accompanying jet, which “Hatay locals saw with their naked eyes.”

    “There were two planes flying. The fate of that second plane remains unknown. The government now denies the existence of a plane clearly seen by the people of Hatay,” Düzgün said.

    “The key to solving this issue is [the second jet]. Who did it belong to and what was it doing over there?” Düzgün asked.

    The second jet belonged to a NATO member but further information on its country of origin has not been provided by official sources, Düzgün said.”

    the 2nd plane wasn’t turkish. gee, i wonder what it was doing?

    • Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 8:40 pm #

      No, no, you are dead wrong.
      I retracted my initial suspicion.
      It looks like there were TWO pilots (two helmets, two sets of empty boots) who were naturists/nudists, whatever you want to call them.
      They disrobed, as I already said but you seem to ignore my second, much sounder hypothesis, and then got themselves ejected for a bit of skinny dipping. It’s summer. The water must be perfect.

      • who_me June 28, 2012 at 8:59 pm #

        there is still the problem of the missing bodies, alive or dead. did they swim to cyprus for an unofficial vacation? did they get abducted by aliens? were they called to heaven – is this the beginning of the tribulation?

        i have my own theory. the med is more salty than the atlantic ocean and is more alkaline. it’s well known that those who stay in alkaline water will dissolve after a few short hours. the alkalinity of the med dissolved them.

  38. Ariadna Theokopoulos June 28, 2012 at 9:23 pm #

    “the missing bodies, alive or dead. did they swim to cyprus for an unofficial vacation? did they get abducted by aliens?… salty water… dissolved them”

    Naive child, must I keep pointing at the truth staring you in the face?!
    Don’t you remember that both the Turks and the Syrians went looking for the debris? We were not told who got there first but now it’s clear.
    The SYRIANS abducted them!
    Will they admit it? Of course not. Did Saddam Hussein admit he had WMDs? No. If we had gone into Iraq sooner, before he distributed them to Syria, Iran, Venezuela and AlQaida, we would have found them.
    Same here. Speed is of the essence. Turkey must ask NATO to blitz in and rescue the poor bootless pilots.
    I wish I had CNN. They are sure to show us the helmets and the boots soon. I do have BBC, which is just as good. I’ll turn it on.

  39. Laura Stuart June 29, 2012 at 9:52 am #

    I have always known Hurriyet to be a Zionist newspaper and just for the sake of clarity I checked this out with journalist friends in Turkey and they confirmed it again.

  40. who_me July 1, 2012 at 5:41 pm #

    couple of new developments:

    http://www.dp-news.com/en/detail.aspx?articleid=124859

    “U.S. intelligence indicates that a Turkish warplane shot down by Syrian forces was most likely hit by shore-based antiaircraft guns while it was inside Syrian airspace, American officials said, a finding in tune with Syria’s account and at odds with Turkey.”

    americans climbing down. why?

    this?

    http://english.ruvr.ru/2012_07_01/79862961/

    “Russia has its own data pertaining to the incident with the Turkish plane downed by Syria, said Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov during a press conference in Geneva following the “Action Group” on Syria meeting. Moscow is prepared to share the information, he said.”

    • who_me July 1, 2012 at 5:46 pm #

      or does it have to do with the negotiations which are claimed to be successful? the russians say there is no requirement for assad to step down. initially the jewish run western media said the same, but i noticed a headline at yahoo news today saying the agreement does require assad stepping down.

      usual jp lies kicking in again? or is their some truth to that report?

  41. who_me July 5, 2012 at 7:45 pm #

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120704/174402239.html

    Bodies of Turkish Pilots of Downed Plane Found

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