I have somewhat mixed feeling about Ghandi.
I know mr Finkelstein is gaga over him ,
( he published recentely book about Ghandi).
But I saw ,a while ago, a great video, on the you tube, called “pacifying resistence”, in which they say that Ghandi is/was not that particularly admired in India for many different reasons.
Some even call him a traitor.
Here is video:
I kind of agree with a statement of his grandson, though, ( “Jews don’t befriend people, they want to dominate them” ). There is lot of truth in it.
As far as the Ghandi’s call for committing a massive sucide by Jews ?
No , I don’t like it. I could never encourage anybody to commit suicide. It is absurd.
It is wrong.
This actually would qualify under a “hate speech” ,although I dislike using this, over-used by “politically corrected” maniacs, term/slogan.
Did Mr. Atzmon have a point in posting this, other than “(incredible!)”?
I think Mr Aemathisphd is confused by rather enigmatic, one-word comment by our lovely Mr Atzmon.
He doesn’t know if he should jump on him with all sort of accusations, or just let it go.
Confused? No, just curious.
I don’t know what I could accuse him of, given such a laconic statement. I simply wonder where he went to school that this is the first he’s heard of that statement from Gandhi.
You live, you’ll learn.
Nobody knows everything , except, of course you ,mr Aemathisphd.
Poor Socrates , he came down to history with his famous sentence: “I know that I know NOTHING”, but I bet mr Atzmon never heard of this as well.
Mr Atzmon gave us this point…. to ponder, Mr Aemathisphd.
btw I guess for Ghandi, a strong advocate of no-violence, suicide was, in a way, non-violent, peaceful solution.
To advise it to the whole nation means that he did not hold the nation in too much esteem.
“To advise it to the whole nation means that he did not hold the nation in too much esteem.”
I think that’s a stretch.
You mean my nice and polite statement (“did not hold the nation in too much esteem”) is a stretch??
I guess you are right.
To advise some ethnic/race group to commit a massive/collective suicide means the person not only strongly disliked the nation, but probaly hated it , OR maybe he regarded the group as a very serious THREAT to the global peace and justice??
Do you think ,(looking at the recent, accepted gladly by majority of Israeli, poem written by H. survivor, and other “great” statements reg. i.e. Samson’s Option) ,that he might have been so wrong???
Chomsky has a somewhat different take on it. Its possible he may have read the quote in context?
Q: You know what he said to Lewis Fisher in 1938 about the Jews in Germany — that German Jews ought to commit collective suicide, which would “have aroused the world and the people of Germany to Hitler’s violence.”
A: He was making a tactical proposal, not a principled one. He wasn’t saying that they should have walked cheerfully into the gas chambers because that’s what nonviolence dictates. He was saying, “if you do it, you may be better off.”
If you divorce his proposal from any principled concern other than how many people’s lives can be saved, it’s conceivable that it would have aroused world concern in a way that the Nazi slaughter didn’t. I don’t believe it, but it’s not literally impossible. On the other hand, there’s nothing much that the European Jews could have done anyway under the prevailing circumstances, which were shameful everywhere.
Yes, I think Chomsky’s position is the correct one.
There was not much violence in Germany in the 1930′s. There was not much violence in Germany before WW II. There was some violence. Political violence between communists and NAZIS. There was some violence against Jews. There was injustice towards Jews – but there was injustice all over the world. But the number of Jews killed by NAZIS before WW II began was probably less than the number of Palestinians murdered by Jews in Gaza in 2008 (about 1,400). And the number of Jews that were supposedly killed by the NAZIS during WW II (and the methods used) are being exposed as fabrications, exaggerations and lies as the years pass by.
By contrast Jews were murdering millions of Ukrainians in the 1930′s in the Soviet Union so when German troops entered the Soviet Union in 1941 Ukrainians welcomed them as liberators.
Yes ,but then, a few years later ,the Ukrainans brutally , I mean brutally, with a cruelty and savage UNHEARD of, straight from the darkest corners of hell murdered tens of thousands ,( up to 60,000?) of Polish people in the infamous Massacres of Poles in Volynia.
“The atrocities were carried out indiscriminately and without restraint.
The victims, regardless of their age or gender, were routinely tortured to death. Norman Davies in “No Simple Victory” gives a short, but shocking description of the massacres.
Villages were torched. Roman Catholic priests were axed or crucified. Churches were burned with all their parishioners. Isolated farms were attacked by gangs carrying pitchforks and kitchen knives. Throats were cut. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were cut in two. Men were ambushed in the field and led away. The perpetrators could not determine the province’s future. But at least they could determine that it would be a future without Poles. “
Too much is made of the fact that Grass was declared persona non-grata, which is not surprising given the concerted focus of anti-semites worldwide on criticizing everything Israel does, instead of focusing on Israel’s uncommon restraint.
I think, on the contrary, it is remarkable that Israel is using the persona non-grata thing so sparingly as to border on ( a tiny criticism is warranted here) lack of vigilance. I htink the Interior Minister is sleeping on the job and I would fire him for dereliction of duty.
Mandela and Tutu, to give just two examples, should have been nongrated a long time ago for their unjustified slurs, including flinging the “A” word, claiming personal knowledge and experience of life in an “A” state themselves.
I also fail to see why someone cannot be declared persona non-grata posthumously because, really, it’s not about thwarting a person’s vacation plans, it’s about teaching the world a lesson. Ghandi would qualify in spades.
“which is not surprising given the concerted focus of anti-semites worldwide on criticizing everything Israel does”
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.
I too have learned a lot from you.
That makes two of you.
Nothing gets by you, does it?
I think Ariadna was being ironic.
Gee, Jay: Thanks for that bite of the clue cookie
I, on the other hand, certainly wasn’t being ironic. I have learned from Dr Mathis.
For example, for so long I’d heard about the talmudic style of discussion and debate – where truth, illumination and discussion were completely subsderved to winning, and where learning and facts were used not to increase knowledge and understanding but rather to confuse and conceal – but I’d never REALLY seen it so starkly exemplified. In Dr Mathis, now I have and I really understand it so much better.
This is why I’m so reluctant to discuss the Holocaust with him (and why he is so anxious to discuss it with me)
Very well said Paul.
And this is the exact pattern we follow in both Israeli Hasbara, Zionists and also Jewish Anti Zionist. It is all about winning rather than telling the truth.
Interestingly enough, Israel and Zionism were set to amend this cultural tendency within the Jewish discourse. Truthfulness was embedded in my Israeli upbringing. But then at a certain stage truth itself started to unfold. The Nakba, the exploitation of the H, the murder of POWs in 67 and so on.
I would argue that in Israel truth is an ambivalent matter -we like it yet, we don’t know how to cope with it.
Within the Diaspora Talmudic discourse (Zionist, Anti Zionist and AZZ), truth is not valued at all. This explains the why the anti Zionist discourse is saturated with wrong terminology (colonialism, apartheid, Zionism etc’). I guess that on the long run, they go nowhere.
So , Gilad, basically your idea ( and I agree with that) that Jews ,instead of putting blame on some external structure/ideology/circumstances etc.
should examine themselves from within.
AS a group, and individually, for the problems they create ,(around them and in the w.w.world), lie inside of their “collective and individal Jewish identity” and only by dealing with it directly, honestly and effectively, there is a hope for a solution.
If there is even one.
Correct me if Iam wrong.
I’ve just read a beautiful sentence.
“Forgivness is NOT a choice, it’s the ONLY possibility”.
I think you should discuss the Holocaust w/me. I think you’d be surprised what you’d actually learn.
There is a greater likelihood you have already displayed all your arguing “moves” and you’d only be repeating yourself, and since there is no chance you would ever learn anything at all from him, what’s the point? That would make “none of you.”
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This is an astonishing post and all credit to Gilad for posting it.
I agree. Astonishing. 99% of what people know about WW II, Germany, Jews, Hitler is garbage. Slowly the lies the victors have spread are being exposed.
I hope people are paying close attention to pgg804′s comments.
I don’t know how precisely accurate all his comments are (though I’m sure Dr Mathis could tell us) but they do have the ring of truth about them and they work to redress a serious imbalance in our understanding of history – especially of our post WW2, post-Holocaust world.
I just hope that Pgg804′s will stop falling into this “oh-sorry-me-poor-Germany” pattern. Personally, I don’t like it.
It is ine thing to tell that we are/were fed bunch of historical lies ,it is another to try to justify the opressor and his opressions with they idea, “they made him do it”.
Here is a very intersting lecture by dr Rath. What he is saying is just mind blowing.
IT IS A MUST TO LISTEN TO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Great Video links,
totally recommend them to everyone.
For me, ( and for many others)it was a major eye opener.
I would recommend sending it wherever it’s possible.
I’ve watched half of the 3 links and I can’t see what is so convincing or mind-blowing.
It may be true but even if it is it seems to be saying that a major business or group played a huge part in bringing the National socialists to power with th intention of dominating Europe for decades to come.
Is that it or have I missed something?
Those videos just further confirm that there were/are forces that strive for worldy domination.
Their pre-planned efforts to cause wars, conflicts have one major goal. To Rule the earth.
Both wars, and now the glooming possiblity of the 3 WW is not an accident, but carefully, masterfully organized scheme.
The very fact that most of the info that dr. Rath gives in his great lecture is not widely known/published/taught is one of the major signs that we , as a humanity , are being duped/deceived Big Time.
Many don’t see it, many won’t see it.
The issuse is even more complex than that, but this is a seperate story.
They are still in control – the Global elite. We dont have democracy, it is a sham.
IG Bayer had all their stock transferred to Rothschilds and Rockefellers after the war.
Bayer were sponsoring “Atlantic Bridge” with Adam Werritty & Liam Fox, trying to stri up WWIII with Iran.
The charity is closely linked to a major US business lobby group, which is in turn funded by most of the world’s big drug companies including Glaxosmithkline, Novartis and Bayer.
I certainly see your point that in questionisng the standard WW”/Holocaust narrative, we shouldn’t let Hitler etc off completely. But surely pgg804′s argument is that they weren’t really the only oppressors or aggressors.
Hitler is just one of the despots that history is full of.
His crimes are just crimes that many other tyrants/evil people commited. Who stood behind him, who supported him, who let him gain such a power, why people were so easy to follow him.??
All those questions (and many more)are worth finding the right answers, because so far ,the official answers are full of b.s.
Umm… there is accuracy and yet there is deception.
For instance, 1400 Palestinians have been killed. But murdered? Murder has a very specific legal definition and it is not at all clear that these deaths are classifiable as murder, nor that they should be compared to Germany’s state-sponsored killings. It’s facile, but not clear and honest thinking.
Many of the 1400 were children, and it would have been clear from the planning stage that the actions taken would result in these deaths. And they definitely seem to qualify as “state-sponsored killings” as well.
You’re right and Roy is wrong.
By definition, “Murder is the unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of another human being.”
–”unlawful”? Says who? By Israeli law political assassination is also lawful.
–”aforethought”? That implies deliberate intent to kill.
What if the IDF only intended to hurt the Palestinians, very badly, granted, but only to hurt, not to kill them. It is a well-known fact that some people badly injured still survive, be it in a vegetative state. (I apologize for using the word “vegetative” which might hurt the sensitivities of Ariel Sharon’s admirers).
So it’s not murder. “Not that it is bad thing…”
I say the accurate way of putting it is to say that the Palestinians died as a results of wounds inflicted with unprovable intent by the IDF when the Palestinians were in the wrong place (Palestine) at the wrong time (when the IDF came to hurt them).
Not only murder but mass murder. Locked in a concentration camp they had nowhere to flee.
First Fraiser(mathis), now Seinfeld, who’s it gonna be next Jackie Mason?
I think there are 2 issues that should be addressed regarding your comment.
1. your colleague who_me writes that “wikipedia is a very good example of the sort of corruption zionist jews create.it quickly became an exercise in propaganda dissemination.”
so I would not add it as a source for your comment (jews created ich….)
2. regarding the Ukrainians brutally murdered tens of thousands ,( up to 60,000?) of Polish people in Volynia, I guess in this CASE we should maybe adopt Eisen thesis and ask our self, it was horrible, but maybe the Poles should look deep inside themselves and ask themselves questions, maybe their behavior or politics caused it, what did they do that brought the Ukraine’s to do such a thing, the question is, can it be examined and is it in any way special? Perhaps they exploit their Ukraine neighbours – thus the attacks are understandable and maybe even justifiable…….. (taken from Eisen comments)
Eldon, baby. I gave link to Wikipedia because I just wanted to give a quick link to this horrible massacre ,which is completely UNKNOWN to most of, so-called civilised world , although its cruelty and bestiality can hardly match anything else.
I know about it from the first hand.
My grandfather lived through it ,and trust me, words can not even describe what people can do to other people when HATE is the driving force of their lives. There are better links if you care to research the subject.
2. Polish people, the same like an average , common Jewish people didn’t do antyhing to deserve such a fate. The were just victims of many circumstances, on which a simple, average person doesn’t have too much of the influence.
Do you see Polish people terrorizing the world with the “Ukraine massacre Industry??”
Do you see them blaming the whole world for this crime??
Do you see them wallowing in hate and self-pity, and demanding world’s eternal compassion and understanding , while they abuse and oppress mercilessly antoher innocent nation??
You’re reading me far too literally.
I don’t say Jews cause their own troubles just because they’re the victim of those troubles, I say it because so often Jews behave so badly.
And BTW, I don’t think Jews deserve the violence that has befallen them. I want Jewish power to be opposed, but I want it opposed carefully, intelligently and peacefully. Trouble is, the loger it takes to happen, the less likely it is to be peaceful.
Now Eldon, you could help this along right now by turning yourself around and mending your ways.
What do you say?
I wonder sometimes, why so many people feel like nothing bad will happen to them, or ther loved ones. Horrible things happened throughout the history to many innocent people/nations,but people alway think that they, for some reson will be immune to that, speared from the worst.
And my questions is why??
Why do we think that we will be spared the fate that reached million before us.
Are we better?? No
Are we more righteous?? No.
Are we more special?? No
Were those peole more evil?? No
Were they deserving their horrible fate?
That’s why I think we shouldn’t assume that we will be saved…somehow…just because.
And now, with a current massive, nuclear potential for destruction , the final results maybe ..final.
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