Farewell Sectarian Sheikh
by Daniel Mabsout
Saturday, June 30th, 2012
The last thing we heard about Sheikh Ra’ed Salah was the differences he had with the British authorities. Lately the sheikh- A.K.A. the Sheikh of al Aqsa, and who takes pride in his Palestinian identity has fallen in the pit of Sectarianism siding with the enemies of Syria and calling on the Syrians to overthrow their president after achieving which they are to liberate the Golan and then Jerusalem.
It seems -according to our Sheikh -that it is Bashshar al Assad -who has been in post for a decade only -who is standing as an obstacle to the liberation of Palestine and Jerusalem and once Bashshar removed, Palestine shall be free from the river to the sea, forgetting that the only Arab land that has been liberated ie the Lebanese south was so because of Syria’s support and protection of the Lebanese Resistance.
The Sheikh as a matter of fact was not joking, he was serious in his call thinking that the Arab hired armed thugs at the payroll of the prince of Qatar and who busy in slaughtering families will rush to answer his call and will be the next morning heading to Jerusalem with the sheikh ready to receive them.
There is no doubt that the sheikh during his last activities in Italy and on the Mavi Marmara and in England and whom we think is affiliated to many NGOs has been promoting himself as a prominent religious figure to be used like any useful NGOs in several schemes that serves Israel and the western establishment.
We say farewell to the Sheikh of sectarianism and of NGOs who deceived us for many years by giving the impression that he was defending the Aqsa and Palestine while he was promoting his little self & NGOs. NGOs are one thing and liberating Aqsa and Palestine is another thing, but since he has made his choice we can bid farewell to the sectarian sheikh.
Posted by Daniel Mabsout
on June 30, 2012. Filed under Activism,Palestine.
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75 Responses to Farewell Sectarian Sheikh
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Jonathon Blakeley
June 30, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Why are Sunni Muslims supporting the overthrow of Bashshar al Assad. It makes no sense as they are playing into the hands of Zionists? Are they just stupid or complicit?
who_me
June 30, 2012 at 6:29 pm
i wonder the same thing.
Laura Stuart
June 30, 2012 at 8:55 pm
It is a human rights issue, the people of Syria have a legitimate right to wants basic human rights and freedoms.
But according to some, if you want to rid of Assad you are a Zionist.
Jonathon Blakeley
June 30, 2012 at 11:20 pm
Surely it is up to the SYrians to decide not you.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 7:15 am
Yes – is Daniel a Syrian?
The fact is that the Syrians have been under the dictatorship of Bashar al Assad and before him his father so the point is that the Syrians themselves have not had the opportunity to decide. Dicussing having a new leader or overthrowing Assad would have led to imprisonment, torture and possible death.
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 8:15 am
Is Daniel a Syrian ?
yes i am a Lebanese and Lebanon Syria and Palestine are one country unless you want to stick to Balfour /Sykes Picot agreement . We are all threatened by Israel we have a common destiny and we are going to stand together not for superficial consumer humanitarian reasons adopted by the west but for real human existence .
This is war on Syria and on the Syrians themselves that is being waged . and the Syrians have had elections . i am surprised that you are not informed of this and they voted after the referendum around the new constitution with a participation that exceeded 50%, the new parliament has been elected .
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 12:57 pm
At least we can agree on something – the borders need to go. Turkey Syria and Iran were opening up their borders and trade with each other until the real fighting started.
No nationalism in Islam
Daniel Mabsout
June 30, 2012 at 10:07 pm
“It is a human rights issue, the people of Syria have a legitimate right to wants basic human rights and freedoms”
But according to some if you want to fight for human rights , it must be in some country who is confronting Israel and backing Hizbullah and Iran . And it does not matter if you exagerate the matter out of proportions and even hire killer thugs to carry on your so called humanitarian purpose and finally you will be serving the special “humanitarian purpose” of Israel.
Laura Stuart
June 30, 2012 at 10:11 pm
So if a leader is anti Israel it doesn’t matter if he is a cruel dictator?
Daniel Mabsout
June 30, 2012 at 11:01 pm
you do not get another question Laura . Al Assad is not a dictator and if his people and the army did not want him to stay he could not have stayed one more day .Some are sectarian and cannot see the matter objectively . You have to chose between the sect and the cause . it is the majority of people and the army that are backing him against the intervention by all pro israeli leaders of NATO Gulf and USA and the sectarian Muslim people .
Laura Stuart
June 30, 2012 at 11:08 pm
Assad is very much a dictator and there are plenty of witnesses and reports over the years to support that.
Daniel in Lebanon you have some sort of democracy even not a perfect one but the people of Lebanon have the chance to vote for their leaders so would it not be fair to support the same freedom of choice in Syria, just like they had in Tunisia and Egypt recently?
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 8:17 am
Assad enjoys a popularity that you are not aware of , according to Researches done in Qatar Assad enjoys 70% of the people’s support , i think it is much more than that . He is a popular leader despite the campaign picturing him as a tyrant , he is not a tyrant nor a dictator , he is a leader of his own people and has international popularity and he never committed any slaughters for sure . It is wrong to project ideas of your own or campaigns set against Assad on the the reality of the situation . This is just to give public opinion a justification for toppling him .
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 9:13 am
what are you talking about research done in Qatar? I thought Qatar to you was a part of (in your mind) the Sunni/Zionist coalition? How can people in Qatar research how people feel in Syria? Did they phone them all up or send them emails? Syria has the most monitored Internet in the world. The phone will be the same.
I really can’t believe that you can say Assad is not a dictator, you lose credibility totally by saying that.
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 4:03 pm
this was also in the guardian and the uprooted Palestinians also mentioned it and this link is from the uprooted Palestinians that more than half the Syrians want Bashshar to remain in post
but there are defects in the way the poll was conducted , it is believed to be much more than that , more even than 75% of the population .
http://uprootedpalestinians.blogspot.com/2012/01/qatar-times-majority-of-syrian-support.html
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 8:26 am
How a journalist like you Laura has not been informed about who the active opposition on the ground is , even the Guardian has mentioned who is behind the opposition active in Syria ? this is not the Syrian opposition made of local parties and opposers . these are thugs funded by the the Arab gulf and trained in Turkey by the CIA , i am surprised that you -as a supporter of the Palestinian cause- can think that Arab Gulf regimes can bring anything democratic anywhere . there is so much money that is being poured into what is happening in Syria in terms of thugs or NGOs that one can hardly speak about any genuine opposition acting out there .
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 8:56 am
Who is now on the ground is not the discussion. the reality is that the Syrians have been living under oppression. Islam does not allow oppression. Assad and his father before him use arrest, torture and imprisonment of it’s own people. The uprising did not start off as sectarian, but has become one.
Do you believe that the people of Syria should have to tolerate an oppressive ruler because it suits the needs of some Lebanese and Iran?
Is that not just outside interference as well?
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 9:07 am
How could anyone seriously do an opinion poll in a country like Syria? Syrians that I know say they are scared to even think something negative about Assad.
The population of Syria is 74/75% Sunni – the Muslim brotherhood were the main opposition to Assad do you want to deny they were oppressed? Do you deny the massacre at Hama?
At the start of this conflict all sects were marching together against Assad.
No one has been able to state why a different ruler from Assad would be more pro Israel.
Jonathon Blakeley
July 1, 2012 at 10:45 am
Let the Syrians decide what they want, through local not interventionist means, Or are you in favour of war and massive loss of life?
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 11:23 am
Syria
On 10 July 2000, Bashar al-Assad was elected President by referendum in which he ran unopposed, garnering 97.29% of the vote, according to Syrian Government statistics
In fact now I think about it – if Assad ran for the Presidency unopposed then who were the 2.7 who didn’t vote for him? I bet there were questions asked.
Only in Arab countries do they have elections where only one candidate stands
who_me
July 1, 2012 at 5:31 pm
Laura Stuart
“Only in Arab countries do they have elections where only one candidate stands”
all the countries jewish power rules, it is essentially only one candidate running in elections. there may be 2-3 people running, but they are all jp stooges. the mideast countries are just most honest.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 11:09 am
Jonathon you need to understand how voting works in Arab countries
Syria
On 10 July 2000, Bashar al-Assad was elected President by referendum in which he ran unopposed, garnering 97.29% of the vote, according to Syrian Government statistics
Tunisia
In the presidential race, incumbent president Zine El Abidine Ben Ali won 89.62% of the vote.
Egypt
All Arab rulers are amateurs compared to Mubarak
Mubarak was elected to his fifth consecutive term as president in September 2005. The election was the first contested presidential election in Egypt’s history, with official results showing Mubarak won 88.6% of the votes cast, however civil organizations observing the elections and the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights reported mass rigging activities, bought votes and fraud. Ayman Nour, a candidate for the Al-Ghad (Tomorrow) party, contested the election results on September 8, 2005. In a move widely seen as political persecution, Nour was convicted of forgery and sentenced to five years at hard labor on December 24, 2005.
Yemen
Saleh became Yemen’s first directly-elected president in the 1999 presidential election, winning 96.2% of the vote
But the winner is …….
Iraq
Saddam was the most loved by his “Beeble” with a 100% election victory!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/2331951.stm
Jonathon are you getting the feeling for how Arab “democracy” and voting works? Yes, of course we really wish that Syrians could choose their leader, but the recent referendem which was not held in a free manner leaves him with another 16 years as President.
Jonathon Blakeley
July 1, 2012 at 11:34 am
But you are not Syrian, so what does it have to do with you. Is it really wise or ethical to be interfering? Do you really think NATO will bring freedom to Syria? Look what they did to Sadam Hussein and Ghaddfi.
Roy Bard
July 1, 2012 at 11:44 am
Go on Laura
Tell us how the people of Britain wanted David Cameron…..
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 12:06 pm
We have the choice not to vote or to vote against him though don’t we?
Roy you don’t need to tell me that democracy doesn’t exist in the U.K. but we are not subject to torture or imprisonment if we wish to express ourselves for example by saying
DAVID CAMERON IS A W*ANKER
Roy Bard
July 1, 2012 at 12:25 pm
And yet in Egypt it appears that Shafiq was pretty close to being elected – which would have left the whole Mubarak regime in place.
Conflating elections with human rights seems erroneous to me.
It also occurs to me that if Iran started arming dissident groups in the UK the police would happily resort to torture and imprisonment to preserve the ruling class.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 12:32 pm
I really think the situation in Egypt is far from perfect – but it is a whole lot better than it was, even though massive challenges lie ahead.
The zionised British government is not averse to using torture, extraordinary rendition and imprisonment without trial, especially for Muslims, we know that, which is why I say “We Are All Palestinians” we are waiting for liberation too.
Somoe
July 1, 2012 at 11:30 am
Laura,
Anyone who can’t see that it is wrong to willfully interfere in the affairs of a sovereign state, against the wishes of most of the Syrian people is either a brainwashed idiot or an agent for the opposition, in my opinion.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 11:47 am
Well, Somoe no one is supporting outside forces on either side to intervene in Syria – why do you assume that I support NATO or Iranian/Lebanese forces?
The people of Syria should be able to choose their own leadership but then that is exactly what the Arab revolutions are all about.
Somoe
July 1, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Well, what is it exactly that you ARE advocating Laura? How do you propose to change things for the Syrians, if as you say you are not in support of nato moving for the final solution? Daniel has quite clearly stated that there were elections – are you saying they are worthless because you say so? What would it take for you to recognise the results of an election – For Assad NOT to be re-elected? It doesn’t really seem like you care about democracy at all to me!
Jonathon Blakeley
July 1, 2012 at 11:37 am
If the Syrians wish to have a popular local Syrian revolution and overthrow Assad fine. I have no problem with that. What i do have a mssive problem with is MI6 and their chums training and supplying “insurgents” and creating a revolution that they want not that the Syrians want or need.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 11:43 am
Unfortunately, outside interference is what is happening, but not just from Sunnis who are not from Syria but also by Shia who are not from Syria and who knows who else?
The problem is the same in all these Arab countries where there is oppression and dictatorship, the people can not show their opinions against the leaders. So how to establish free and fair elections like in Egypt or Tunisia?
I am not Syrian but I am allowed to express my opinion on the situation there – allegedly
Somoe
July 1, 2012 at 11:42 am
How can you ignore the fact that every time nato and the great liberation machine is dragged out (at our expense i might add) 100s of thousands if not millions die? Indiscriminate bombings of civilian areas like in Libya and Iraq only succeeded in huge death tolls. Paying armed mercenaries to slaughter innocents and blame it on the Syrian authorities to demonise them in the eyes of the world is exactly the same tactic as they used in Libya and yet you choose to ignore that. Why?
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 8:34 pm
Somoe how can you compare Libya to Iraq?
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 2:14 pm
Still some foreigners are really hot about revolutions , especially about revolutions in the Arab world , one would wonder why some foreigners are so much cheering regarding these revolutions , and what is it that is so cheering , one would wonder .
There is great instability and great chaos everywhere , people are dying by dozens in Syria , in Libya , in Yemen , in Gaza everyday ,Gaza is plunged in darkness and great instability has taken Egypt , the society is divided concerning every issue, the unemployment has reached 10% and also Tunisia , the economic crisis has increased drastically , poverty is threatening a big portion of the population , the tourists did not come this year and will not come . Libya is threatened with partition , so is Yemen between north and south , both are threatened with inflation, Bahrain is threatened in its existence itself, it is to become affiliated to KSA in what would be called the Gulf Union; there goes, Bahrain the only revolution that has not been manipulated.
Still some westerners find the way to rejoice over all this . Still they want to worship the idols of freedom and democracy and liberty at our own expense , they want to celebrate all this crap over our dead bodies , over our security and safety and that of our parents and children , may they be damned , may those people be damned who celebrate the revolutions of the prince of Qatar , the revolutions of Soros , of NGO and Google , the revolutions of the internet backed by al Jazeera . May they be damned . May you be damned you fake activists and whoever –like you- supports the kind of instability and chaotic situation that has taken the Arab world .
These people like these fake activists and company and so many others journalists and intellectuals -among them Arabs also- are not well wishers of our people and societies . They feed on the ailments of Arab countries and will feed these ailments in return in whatever possible way . They are the enemies of these countries.
What are they celebrating, in their articles and reports , what are they celebrating ? The armed thugs of Libya ? The 60000 victims of NATO bombardments ? Or the slaughters of thousands of black Africans slaughtered by the racist thugs led by Henry Levy ? Or the killing of Kaddhafi ? Are they celebrating the killing of Kaddhafi or the sacking of Libya? What are they these blood thirsty people hiding under the garb of a peace activists celebrating ?
These activists along with the others who are like them , the activists of the world Establishment , what are they celebrating in Syria , and whom are they saluting ? The people who take Gulf money in order to destroy their country , who get paid few dollars everyday from some Saudi or Qatari prince to go scream in the streets at sunset? Or are they saluting the convicts who were set free from Iraqi prisons and smuggled by hundreds into Syria to create havoc ? What is it that delights them ? The 4000 Syrian soldiers killed and sometimes butchered by the armed thugs or the civilians killed by those same thugs?
What is it that delights them more , the instability of Yemen or that of Tunisia? The armed thugs of Libya or those of Syria , or both in addition to Al Qa’ida ? And why do they prefer to publish articles that lie and distort truth ? Why do they have these kinds of preferences for lying and distorting facts over anything else , is that a special taste they have developed or some sort of training they underwent or both ?
Do they really love Palestine, and for whom do they love it ? For the Palestinians or for the Zionists or for both ? Do they know where is Palestine or what is Palestine? , have they met a Palestinian that is not an NGO, a Palestinian who is a refugee? a homeless refugee? Do they know that half the things they say or publish are full of misinformation , for whose sake do they do this ? To serve whom ? The NATO ? The world order? Their friends the Zionists , or the BDS? Are they sure they want freedom for Arabs , ? why don’t they let the Arabs decide what is good for them instead , or they think that with their head of NGO they know better , or is it that they are not fully satiated yet ?
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 8:32 pm
Still some foreigners are really hot about revolutions , especially about revolutions in the Arab world , one would wonder why some foreigners are so much cheering regarding these revolutions , and what is it that is so cheering , one would wonder .
……… Because at last the Arabs have risen up and taken some control and brought an end to the tyranny – they did it not us Westerners and they are the ones celebrating now………………….
There is great instability and great chaos everywhere , people are dying by dozens in Syria , in Libya , in Yemen , in Gaza everyday ,Gaza is plunged in darkness and great instability has taken Egypt , the society is divided concerning every issue, the unemployment has reached 10% and also Tunisia , the economic crisis has increased drastically , poverty is threatening a big portion of the population , the tourists did not come this year and will not come . Libya is threatened with partition , so is Yemen between north and south , both are threatened with inflation, Bahrain is threatened in its existence itself, it is to become affiliated to KSA in what would be called the Gulf Union; there goes, Bahrain the only revolution that has not been manipulated.
………… No doubt that there is an economic price to pay for the revolutions but in the long term if the despots and their families are no longer pocketing the nations wealth things will improve. ……………………………..
Still some westerners find the way to rejoice over all this . Still they want to worship the idols of freedom and democracy and liberty at our own expense
………………. for sure we are happy about the freedoms gained …………………….
, they want to celebrate all this crap over our dead bodies , over our security and safety and that of our parents and children , may they be damned , may those people be damned who celebrate the revolutions of the prince of Qatar , the revolutions of Soros , of NGO and Google , the revolutions of the internet backed by al Jazeera . May they be damned . May you be damned you fake activists and whoever –like you- supports the kind of instability and chaotic situation that has taken the Arab world .
…………… Daniel you are a little over emotional perhaps…………….. Only you and perhaps Netanyahu and Al Suad prefer the stability of the old dictatorships………………..
These people like these fake activists and company and so many others journalists and intellectuals -among them Arabs also- are not well wishers of our people and societies . They feed on the ailments of Arab countries and will feed these ailments in return in whatever possible way . They are the enemies of these countries.
What are they celebrating, in their articles and reports , what are they celebrating ? The armed thugs of Libya ? The 60000 victims of NATO bombardments ?
………………. That is not true ………….Or the slaughters of thousands of black Africans slaughtered by the racist thugs led by Henry Levy ? ……… Also not true although Gaddafi hired lots of mercenaries and some blacks working there suffered because of it ……… Or the killing of Kaddhafi ? Are they celebrating the killing of Kaddhafi or the sacking of Libya? What are they these blood thirsty people hiding under the garb of a peace activists celebrating ?
……….. No one loves a torturer ………….
These activists along with the others who are like them , the activists of the world Establishment , what are they celebrating in Syria , and whom are they saluting ? The people who take Gulf money in order to destroy their country , who get paid few dollars everyday from some Saudi or Qatari prince to go scream in the streets at sunset? Or are they saluting the convicts who were set free from Iraqi prisons and smuggled by hundreds into Syria to create havoc ? What is it that delights them ? The 4000 Syrian soldiers killed and sometimes butchered by the armed thugs or the civilians killed by those same thugs?
………. Killing on both sides but Assad kills more …………………….
What is it that delights them more , the instability of Yemen or that of Tunisia? The armed thugs of Libya or those of Syria , or both in addition to Al Qa’ida ? And why do they prefer to publish articles that lie and distort truth ? Why do they have these kinds of preferences for lying and distorting facts over anything else , is that a special taste they have developed or some sort of training they underwent or both ?
………… Well Daniel as a Muslim I celebrate the rise of Islam and of freedom and justice…….
Do they really love Palestine, and for whom do they love it ? For the Palestinians or for the Zionists or for both ? Do they know where is Palestine or what is Palestine? , have they met a Palestinian that is not an NGO, a Palestinian who is a refugee? a homeless refugee? Do they know that half the things they say or publish are full of misinformation , for whose sake do they do this ? To serve whom ? The NATO ? The world order? Their friends the Zionists , or the BDS? Are they sure they want freedom for Arabs , ? why don’t they let the Arabs decide what is good for them instead , or they think that with their head of NGO they know better , or is it that they are not fully satiated yet ?
………… you get 10/10 for the high drama content but null point for factuality ………….
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Can anyone remember that this post is about Sheik Raed Salah? An amazing and brave man Mash’Allah
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 1, 2012 at 9:42 pm
Sure, but what else is there to say about the jerk who sings out of the zionist hymn book? Nothing brave about obeying the massa — all the slaves and the short-sighted do it.
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 9:53 pm
Oh Dear
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 9:56 pm
Laura, Happy to learn that you rejoiced over the occupation of Libya by NATO . If you side with NATO then this tells it all. You cannot side with NATO and with Arab causes , you would have to choose , you cannot have both.The slaughters of Black Africans and the death caused by NATO shelling as well are facts . You cannot deny facts .
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 10:16 pm
Daniel according to you Sheik Raed Salah and I are Zionists and I rejoice in NATO occupying Libya.
You really are insane.
Daniel Mabsout
July 1, 2012 at 10:24 pm
you and Raed Salah are both sectarian and biased and the Zionists are rejoicing over this
Laura Stuart
July 1, 2012 at 10:35 pm
You accuse me of sectarianism whilst at the same time saying that the only genuine uprising was the one by a Shia majority against a Sunni minority ruler in Bahrain but deny that a Sunni majority want to oust an Alawite minority ruler in Syria.
Every article you write is loaded with sectarianism, you are not interested in Human Rights or justice.
Daniel Mabsout
July 2, 2012 at 2:52 pm
In Bahrain the uprising is not sectarian though it might look so . These are national demands that the whole population has been denied . the Shi’as are not asking things for themselves they do not have sectarian demands , they are asking things for all , they do not want to be in power and they do not want to overthrow the king , they want few righteous demands and are asking for them peacefully , they are not armed . How can you compare this to what is happening in Syria ?
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 3:39 pm
I do not compare it – rather I compare your view and support of it as against your views and non support against the Syrian uprising.
searching
July 2, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Laura ,
you are so blind ,ignorant and so naive that it is pitful to read what you write on the matter of so called arab revolutuions etc.
You are one of millions of useful idiots that zionists/Jewish Power rely on.
You do a very good job for them by supporting so called “Syrians rebels”. Zionists/Jewish Power love people like you ,and they laugh at them as well ,because they know you are being used as ignorant, useful, dedicated tools to advance their JPower agenda and goals.
Your full blown ignorance does not justify the fact that indirectly you are willingly cooperating with Zionists.
You can congratulate yourself on being a total, fanatical dupe. You should change your last name to Laura- The Useful Idiot.
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 4:18 pm
You are also entitled to your point of view of course
searching
July 2, 2012 at 4:26 pm
well, my point of view is right.
searching
July 2, 2012 at 4:41 pm
“..In political jargon, USEFUL IDIOT is a pejorative term used to describe people perceived as propagandists for a cause whose GOAL they DO NOT understand, who are USED CYNICALLY by the leaders of the cause.
The term was originally used to describe Soviet sympathizers in Western countries.
The implication was that although the people in question naïvely thought of themselves as an ally of the Soviet Union, they were actually held in contempt and were being cynically used….”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 2, 2012 at 5:03 pm
I can see that you have a poor understanding of it all, Daniel.
We in the West, the civilized world to be truthful, deplore sectarianism and make that clear every chance we get.
In fact we feel we have to intervene sometimes militarily ( alas, too often!) for humanitarian reasons when it flares into conflicts and becomes a threat to its own people and risks destabilizing the region.
Nevertheless we have a conundrum: it is hard to impossible to combat sectarianism when it is underdeveloped and barely manifested in the privacy of homes and mosques and fails to thrive into a political force.
This is why, paradoxically–very few people understand this well — in order to combat it we must first help it to develop.
It sounds paradoxical but it is true and tested. We had to do it again and again in the ME and in Africa and we are still working on it.
It is laborious, time-consuming and very costly: it takes lots of money and skilled organizations (like NGOs) but it really works.
For us, that is. But for us really means for the world because we are in charge of it.
I hope this helps your understanding.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 1, 2012 at 11:00 pm
Your sectarianism is thunderingly loud, Laura.
You are the one–the only one–who talks about “deviationism,’ you cheer that in Syria “a Sunni majority want to oust an Alawite minority ruler in Syria” which any dispassionate observer can see it is not at all what’s happening there, you snort at Nasrallah, and claim that (being well-informed by your friend)s Libya was “liberated” from a tyrant who was killing his people (who are happy and free now).
Yet you are indignant anyone can say you salute foreign intervention, like NATO’s intervention in Lybia, although it was THE ONLY agency of the devastation of Libya that you call “liberation.”
Can you at least explain the grounds of your obvious animus against Nasrallah? If they are not sectarian, what are they? Friends in Lebanon who explained it all to you?
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 4:43 am
Can you at least give some evidence for your claims about how I snort at NasrAllah Adriana?
Are you the same Adriana who used to post on Harrys place?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 2, 2012 at 4:31 pm
I have asked you to explain your animus against Hassan Nasrallah or–if have none–to describe your views about him. Unless I missed it, you haven’t yet.
“Are you the same Adriana who used to post on Harrys place?”
When I post there I changed my name to “Adriana” but you, Holmes, apparently could not be fooled.
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 4:35 pm
Adriana = Ariadna just typos on my part.
Why would you be interested in my views of NasrAllah?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 2, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Because I would better understand your stance on the conflicts going on, which still stump me (your views more than the conflicts).
etominusipi
July 2, 2012 at 9:09 pm
a heated discussion!
i love to read these lively debates, and yet more often than not, the end result is a feeling that
(1) all serious political issues are extremely complex and layered with many layers of information, disinformation and lack of information.
(2) people (including myself) tend to approach issues from points of view which are often quite incompatible. when these incompatibilities are left unacknowledged, discussions easily degenerate into ‘slanging matches’. in using this term incompatible i attempt to allude to conflicting allegiances, conflicting definitions of words, conflicting judgements about personalities, and about history, conflicting descriptions of complex social realities, conflicting ethical principles, conflicting philosophical or religous world-views…the list could be extended to fill several pages, and would, naturally, itself become the subject of bitter controversy.
i have no objection to the rough and tumble of debate. i enjoy strong and clear presentation of views, even when i do not entirely agree with what is expressed – it may help me to further articulate my own far from definite thoughts and feelings. on occasion it allows me to correct errors in my own thinking. being not well-educated politically i also greatly enjoy learning new relevant facts which can add a little depth to my own rather shallow perceptions. for this i thank all of you who contribute to these discussions – the standard of debate here is, on the whole, admirable for an internet forum.
the problem with slanging matches, despite their rich cathectic possibilities, is, that like many obsessive-compulsive patterns of behaviour, they get nowhere. the potential dynamic of intellectual exchange becomes squandered in powering movements of thought which are merely circular, and the only tangible result often is that each participant becomes ever more firmly entrenched in their own prejudices.
when we argue, even the most intelligent and humane of us, it is easy to act like squabbling children. this behaviour, unfortunately, serves only the interests of those who seek to promote sectarianism, ethical confusion and strife.
defending one’s ‘position’ may be necessary at times, but even when justified it tends to harden the carapace of ego, and therefore hinder us in our search for objectivity in judgement of fact and universality in ethical principles.
to take a very simple example from the comments above:
Searching: You should change your last name to Laura – The Useful Idiot.
Laura: You are also entitled to your point of view of course
Searching: well, my point of view is right….
whilst i have great respect for Searching’s analyses, in that particular little exchange Laura scores more highly on my card.
what occurs to me is that as a convert to Islam Laura will have a long and interesting struggle to integrate her Faith with her previous western-style education/indoctrination. to the extent she is successful then a new, unique perspective will gradually emerge from her learning experience which may then provide a useful stimulus the thinking of others, both Muslims and non-Muslims. why should we not help her in this interesting exercise? for example by asking her to articulate what she means by ‘Islam’ when she says:
Laura: No nationalism in Islam
i understand Daniel’s anger, but has he considered carefully whether his written expressions of this anger are calculated to serve the cause of the struggle against oppression, or are merely a forgiveable, but nonetheless self-indulgent personal catharsis?
as for the confusion of voting systems with ‘democracy’ i will quote someone too little read today, Peter Kropotkin:
absolute monarchy – that is court rule – corresponded to the system of serfdom. representative government corresponds to Capital-rule. both, however, are class-rule.
whilst the teachings of Jesus are ethically too far advanced for us to practice fully in our current state of affairs, we perhaps should not forget the injunction to ‘pray for those that persecute you’ and his late injunction to his students to love one another.
these teachings are not incompatible with his less gentle actions, such as driving the money-changers out of the temple, or constantly exposing the self-righteousness, hypocrisy and hard-heartedness of the Pharisaic ruling caste.
finally, may i apologise to all of you for having just said so little at such great length.
Daniel Mabsout
July 2, 2012 at 9:52 pm
a new convert to islam converting to sectarian islam is a dubious matter .is one converting for the religion or for the sect . she should have indicated her status and not involved in these discussions , she should have limited herself to her religious experience ; but no she indicated she does not make a difference between sect and religion
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 2, 2012 at 10:13 pm
It is most likely an ignorant question but can one convert to Islam generically? If one converts to “christianity” one still converts to a specific church: Catholic, Baptist, Nazarene, etc. Isn’t it the same thing in Islam?
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 9:26 pm
That’s a very good natured and civilised post.
What I mean by no nationalism in Islam is that we owe alleigance only to Allah. I also mean that Allah did not draw the lines between Algeria/Libya/Egypt and so on. Mostly the British government drew the lines as we all know.
The teachings of Jesus a.s. were indeed wonderful as were all of the Prophets and Messengers of Allah.
Do please continue advising us how to “play nice” on here.
Ariadna Theokopoulos
July 2, 2012 at 10:07 pm
Maybe you should curb your tendency to absolutize and simplify and consider the possibility that there is Allegiance and allegiance and the latter does not insult the former. Why would Allah really frown upon Egyptians, Iraqis, Algerians, Syrians or Palestinians seeing themselves as distinct nationalities and cultures, which they ARE? Were you going to include the Pakistanis also in your “no nationalism in Islam”?
The fact that some borders were drawn arbitrarily on the map by the English does not rob them of their nationality and culture.
In fact Arabs see themselves as very distinct from each other (even in language!), which reminds me of a subtle Arab proverb illustrating their national self-perceptions:
“Books are composed by the Palestinians, printed ad sold by the Lebanese and read by the Egyptians.”
Your claim fits neatly, whether you like it or not, in the zionist insistence that “Palestinians do not exist”–they are all Arabs, muslims and since Stabs/muslims have such vast countries why don’t they go there? Hey, they’re all Umma aren’t they?
Laura Stuart
July 2, 2012 at 10:23 pm
My tendency to simplify comes down to personal laziness in not wanting to write a lot of words.
Of course before the Brits drew the lines on the map different regions existed but do we need man made borders to divide people?
Here have a (not very good) “jihadist rap video” explaining it better. Sorry the map is not up to date since the Islamic emirate of Londonistan is not shown.
http://soldiersofallah-1924.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/soldiers-of-allah-imaginary-walls.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g5igVCAFO0
Daniel Mabsout
July 2, 2012 at 10:39 pm
What Laura is living is not Islam but sectarianism , is rather brainwashing , she is not using her own mind , she ia thinking through someone’s mind and someone’s eyes , she is different from all the converts i know who brought all their enriching experience to Islam and lived Islam as a new rejuvinating experience that was open to oneself basically and to others as well while Laura has been introduced to religion as one enrolls in a political party that is full of boundaries and restrictions . This could not be a spiritual experience , this is a narrow indoctrinating experience that instead of making one open to events as they present themselves makes one project his sad indoctrination on events , this is due to the fact that she was introduced to Islam by sectarian people and not by true Muslims
searching
July 3, 2012 at 12:47 pm
very well said.
“…instead of making one open to events as they present themselves makes one project his sad indoctrination on events …”
Daniel Mabsout
July 2, 2012 at 10:46 pm
the born Muslim people might have become sectarian through karma they have from past actions but why should a new convert to the religion of Islam adopt sectarian thought ?
fool me once...
July 3, 2012 at 12:58 am
Daniel;
“the born Muslim people might have become sectarian through karma they have from past actions…”
That statement’s a big puzzle for me to understand. How can someone be born muslim, christian, jew or any other religion?
Surely all religion is an “indoctrination experience” until the structure finds a footing and then it’s just a matter of acceptance of the “interpretations” to maintain the framework. The problems arise for the religion when the builders interpretations differ on the architects vision. With a constant stream of new labourers arriving on a daily basis, the disgruntled builders start to adopt their own selection process to influence the master plan. The builders know the construction viability of the structure is dependent on the workforce. When the fluff’s removed where’s the spirituality in that kind of contrived psychological mania?
When you say “karma” do you mean it in the way of “getting what you deserve”? I’ve heard it said by religious people for instance, that the plight of starving African children is due to their karma. Will you expand on your karma reference please. cheers
Daniel Mabsout
July 3, 2012 at 8:30 am
the word karma here means acquired attitudes and thoughts through childhood , and past actions mean actions of his childhood and not previous lives.
Laura Stuart
July 3, 2012 at 7:13 am
There is no such thing as Karma in Islam – here is a video answering the question about Karma by Dr Zakir Naik – apologies for the strong accents but since Karma is a Hindu thing it is a discussion amongst Asians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYtfbbpnzrw
The Prophet Muhammad said, “No babe is born but upon Fitra. It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist.” (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)
The Fitra is the natural state of disposition towards which all human beings possess in believing in only One God. The Qur’an says that all souls had been gathered in Paradise and we all agreed that we would worship none but Him (7:172). So it is referring to this consciousness of the Divine (Taqwa).
So there is no Karma and no concept of original sin either
Daniel Mabsout
July 3, 2012 at 8:17 am
What I mean is that – by being born to parents following a certain religion and a certain sect – one –as a child – will spontaneously identify and will not be able to distinguish between religion and sect and –therefore-the experience he acquires and gathers makes him unable to see the religion except through his sect . While , when knowingly he is searching for God in a religion and enters one –as a grown up –he is free from the previous conditioning of someone who is born into a certain sect; why then such a person should chain himself with the handicaps of the previous conditioning which he does not have and which belongs to the experiences of someone else?
Laura Stuart
July 3, 2012 at 8:30 am
Do you belong to a religious sect Daniel?
searching
July 3, 2012 at 12:53 pm
“..why then such a person should chain himself with the handicaps of the previous conditioning which he does not have and which belongs to the experiences of someone else..”
maybe Laura likes being chained?? maybe she likes to follow certian guru or leaders and go blindly after them?? maybe she thinks that is what a good muslim convert should do?? maybe she thinks that independent , honest, thinking is a big no -no while you belong to a certain sect?? maybe she is proud of being a parrot and repeat slogans of her gurus/leaders??
Daniel Mabsout
July 3, 2012 at 8:42 am
why should i belong to a sect if i can belong to the whole ? though a certain sect excells in something but excellence really belongs to the whole.
Laura Stuart
July 3, 2012 at 8:53 am
What is the whole? The whole what?
Daniel Mabsout
July 3, 2012 at 11:56 am
the “whole” means the relation made by the mind without attachment but with understanding . when you see a child , if he is your actual child then you will say my child out of attachment to this particular body . but if he is not your actual child but you being a woman endowed with motherhood and he being a child endowed with childhood then that will be different. in the first case your attachment to one child deprived you of all other children and even of this child himself because you were only attached to his physical body.
you say you are with Palestine but you do not appreciate the Resistance of the Lebanese people that defeated israel,just like a man who loves married life but he only hates his wife.
Laura Stuart
July 3, 2012 at 1:04 pm
Every person who follows a religion follows a scripture and the scripture is interpreted by scholars who write books. If we all just made our own interpretations of the Quran where would that leave us? What about the authentic narrations which go back to the sahabah who lived with listened to and watched the Prophet Mohammed s.a.w. for the 23 years he was a Prophet?
Or should I just go with what ever thought seems logical to me? There is no religion where you just listen to what is in your heart and follow your own whims and desires.
No one has said a negative word about the Lebanese resistance but they are a resistance force for Lebanon or not?
Laura Stuart
July 3, 2012 at 1:09 pm
Definitely any adherent to a religion will need to follow scholars.
Daniel Mabsout
July 3, 2012 at 4:27 pm
No one told you not to go to scholars . I go to scholars . But why did you choose sectarian scholars ?Sectarianism is anti religion and anti Islam for Islam stands for unity and solidarity and ordains to shun al divisive factors of the Umma , Sectarianism is extremely dangerous it is like when the Zionists say we are God’s chosen people, it is being promoted by Saudi Arabia and by other Gulf countries and by foreign Secret services of the western establishment . Billions are being spent to spread sectarianism and it seems that you have been introduced to sectarian Islam which is not Islam at all .