Footer Pages


CrossTalk on BDS: Sanctioning Israel

An interesting debate regarding the future and effectiveness of the BDS movement. Omar Baddar carrries the BDS party line and emphasises cohesion of the Palestinian struggle, yet they seek paradoxically to disavow Gilad Atzmon for being critical of Jewish Power and culture that they say they wish to change. Puzzling indeed.

What goals has the BDS movement achieved so far? Does it aim for a constructive solution to the conflict? How should Israel react to it? Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky agree that the goal of the movement is to destroy Israel – how valid is this judgment? Can the movement reinvent itself and win support from those who criticize it today? CrossTalking with Gilad Atzmon, Eric Walberg and Omar Baddar.

17 Responses to CrossTalk on BDS: Sanctioning Israel

  1. searching April 24, 2012 at 9:09 am #

    Interesting video disscusion, especially the ending.
    “It is in fact the Guardian and other media outlets that present a populist approach maintaining some delusional notions of correctness that appear to be detached from the reality in which we are living in.”
    I fully agree. More and more people start to relise that the virtual/MSMedial reality is the fake one, the grossly manipulated one, the one that doesn’t serve regular people, but their hidden-behind-the-curtains Masters. The Power Elite.
    MSMedia is proving everyday to be a major disgrace,a sell-out that functions on throwing the smoke screen, magic dust on its viewers needed to keep them ignorant and intellectually/morally impotent.
    Obviously it takes two to tango,so people are not without a blame for blindly following their diabolical MSMedial Masters into their dellusional, false reality, which hasn’t too much to do with the actual, extremely disturbing and dangerous ,state of the matters.
    MSMedia keeps avoiding serious issues because they do the job of a Whore-House.
    They keep the public entertained with a sleazy , mind numbing “entertainment”, and dissect the news through the propaganda/politically correct lenses to the point that they lose any objective or truthful value.

  2. solar April 24, 2012 at 1:43 pm #

    Just one more sign of how Atzmon’s anti-Semitism is being recognized for what it is on the left as well as the right, and how the anti-zionist movement is now mature enough to call him out for it.

    • who_me April 24, 2012 at 2:42 pm #

      “Just one more sign of how Atzmon’s anti-Semitism is being recognized for what it is on the left as well as the right, and how the anti-zionist movement is now mature enough to call him out for it.”

      an israeli hasbara spammer telling palestinians how they should view their supporters…this is a good example of what is wrong with jewish zionist thinking (if one could call such braindead sloganeering, thinking). these nazis think they can continue telling everyone what to think, what to do and who to associate with because they are such specially chosen people. this also shows how the israeli hasbara corps support covert zionists like albuminah.

      solar, in her way, shows how the world can not live with israel and jewish zionism any more than it can live with nazism.

  3. who_me April 24, 2012 at 2:33 pm #

    omar baddar’s name is not among the signers of the “palestinian” version of the zionist smear of atzmon, but he appears to be on their side. he also appears to have that single minded totalitarian streak in him atzmon mentioned was a problem in the bds movement. whether to push for a 2 state or 1 state palestine is everyone’s individual choice, one of these proposals shouldn’t be dictated to everyone as how they should proceed, as badder argued for in the debate. the goal is the ending of israeli crimes against palestinians, be they in the occupied territories, in israel or abroad, i see no reason why people shouldn’t work towards this the way they feel is right for them. a movement doesn’t have to have a one size fits all approach to work. in fact, such narrow tactics usually cause a movement to fail to achieve its overall goals.

    personally, i cant see how a 2 state solution could possibly work for palestinians, since israel would continue oppressing them the way it does now and palestinians would have no recourse. in a 1 state, they could work as black people in the usa did during the american civil rights movement of the 60s.

    anyway, that’s all i have time for to say now, but that crosstalk program was an interesting show. it broke the ice about israeli barbarity in a way one doesn’t see in the usual corporate media material on palestine.

  4. ariadna April 24, 2012 at 2:47 pm #

    Excellent interview and Gilad, as always, trounced the abounimites.
    His finale, about the CFI and the “occupied territory” US Congress put paid to Omar’s arguments of ‘practicality’.
    But I do have a couple of laudative observations about the “opposition”:

    1. Omar can give all pro-Palestinian activists who wish to keep their academic positions (or invitations to MSM TV talk shows) in the US/UK some pointers.
    First and foremost: Learn the map of “free speech” so you don’t even accidentally veer into the wild territory of forbidden concepts.
    Know where the checkpoints are and be friendly with the Hasbara guards. They will help you when you are uncertain which turn to take.
    If Norm Finkelstein in his youthful zeal would have behaved more like Omar, exercising his free speech within the walls of “practicality” he would not have been ostracized.

    2. I highly recommend solar to the decision makers in the English language section of the Hasbara Human Resources. I would include this quote in my letter of recommendation:
    “the anti-zionist movement is now mature enough to call him [Atzmon] out for it.”

    “Mature”! Ripe for harvesting. Recommended for canning and sale. Made in AZZ land. No Jewish red lines have been hurt in the making of this product. It contains no anti-semitism derivatives. Sell by: until we say otherwise. Excellent!
    I don’t think I have seen this hasbara euphemism before; it is very likely that solar came up with it all on his own. There are PhDs that are unable to contribute so inspiredly to the hasbara dictionary of ZioSpeak dictionary. Go solar!

    • Gilad Atzmon April 24, 2012 at 3:18 pm #

      I think that we have to accept that Abunimah and Baddar are operating within a hostile Zionised territory and they also want a day job. There is something they have to give in return. We cannot be too judgmental of their choices. But we also cannot take everything they say very seriously.

      As we can see, Abunimah kept very quiet after the publication of the statement against me, especially after it was revealed that he admitted not reading anything by me..

      And here is a scoop… Initially it was Abunimah who was supposed to debate me on this RT program,,, but when he realised in the studio that it was me in London he chickened out. He announced that he had ‘another appointment’ and left the studio. I have heard a recording of it, it is funny beyond belief..

      • who_me April 24, 2012 at 7:44 pm #

        badder didn’t seem to have much to say and he repeated himself on focusing on the israeli occupation.

        but just focusing on the occupation is too limited an approach to the israel problem because it doesn’t address the israel problem, just one of the symptoms of it – their occupation of the west bank. also, of the possible ways to start getting the israel problem fixed, getting them to remove their troops and squatters from the west bank is the least painful of the things israel could be forced to do. they did leave gaza, so getting them to leave the west bank will be only a little harder.

        but what will this solve? the people in gaza see repeated israeli war crimes visited upon them. the israelis would treat an unoccupied west bank the same way. there is also the “problem solved, lets move on” effect if the movement is seeking the removal of the israeli occupation and the israelis then leave there. people will feel “they’ve won” and not then follow through on the israel problem, which would still remain, festering as ever.

        this occupation focus reminds me of the presidential politics in the usa to dump bush and elect hopey changey. after the election, the people got uninvolved and obama continued with the same fascism and zionazism that bush’s people were implementing. i think once the israelis were deoccupied of the west bank, the movement would see a similar drawdown and apathetic response to further fixing the israel problem.

        i also think this anticipation of apathy post occupation is part of the reason these covert zionists are pushing for occupation only focus in the movement. it’s a sly strategy that has been used often by both covert zionists other liberal fascists seeking to minimise damage to the establishment structure by active people seeking change. the example about the last u.s. election i used above is only one cooptation. the org moveon has used this strategy from it’s inception. they get a particular movement to focus on one thing they can sacrifice to public opinion, then let the movement fade once that thing has been accomplished.

  5. ariadna April 24, 2012 at 3:49 pm #

    Can’t blame him at all for chickening out. That shows he has, at least in part, become aware of his limitations. Too bad he did not realize this before wading into the AZZ pool in full daylight.

    • Gilad Atzmon April 24, 2012 at 3:55 pm #

      Better later than never 🙂

  6. Gilad Atzmon April 24, 2012 at 3:57 pm #

    But I have listened to many of his talks… there is substantial gap between confidence and content..I guess that his confidence may be shaken a bit, and I am sure that gap will shrink, He is an intelligent boy and an important voice.

  7. ariadna April 24, 2012 at 6:23 pm #

    No doubt he is intelligent. He will regroup. He’s rubbing his jaw now but he will recover and polish his “thesis.” A trim here, a rephrasing there.
    I used to admire him because he did a lot of good. There were decades when in the US they brought to TV “debates” either inarticulate Palestinians and Arabs in general, who could not speak English well at all and looked like deer caught in the headlights, to confront smooth-talking, articulate and rehearsed Israeli hasbarnicks who looked and talked… “like us”.
    The rare times when we saw Edward Said on TV we were told that (1) he is not really a Palestinian but… Egyptian and that he is a Christian, lest we should form the impression that he represented Palestinians at all.
    The other kinds of Arabs and/or Muslims they put on were “moderate muslims” — the nausea-inducing quislings like Ajani or that god-awful Lebanese woman: Gabrielle something.
    When Abounimah appeared it was momentous. There were a few outrageous events in the US he passed unmentioned–we noted it then but put it down to “accommodations” he had to make to get his message through because CAMERA was watching.
    Maybe he was so traumatized that he has remained stuck in that mode or maybe he just saw which side his bread was buttered.
    An uncharitable thought: Suppose Israel becomes one state, suppose the US ceases to support it: what will all these people do for a living? A long-drawn struggle for two states is more practical on a personal level as well.

  8. Lasse Wilhelmson April 24, 2012 at 8:42 pm #

    If I remember right Abounimah attacked Israel Shamir 2004 after he published Flowers og Gallie. Then a leading leftwing palestinian in Sweden (and ISM Sweden who r led by syndicalists and trotskists) demanded that I had to dissociate frpm Shamir, and that this qusestion mut be a boprderline for the pal sol movement in Sweden. I never did, and that was the beginning of the end of my golgate from it.

    I have said it before, and I repeat: The biggest problem – at least in Sweden – is the left who are gatekeepers for Jewish power, and using the “J” word whatsoever. I was even attacked by the left for calling the settelsers in west bank for jews. they cal them for israelies, which in swedish means israeli citizens and can thus even mean non-jewish citizens.

    Imn Sweden there r two marxists Dror Feiler and Henry Ascher who r the heroes in the pal sol movement. They both participated in ship to Gaza and r working in a Jews-only org that advocate a two-state solution.

    I thiink we have two major facors here a) the left and b) coverdness of beeing accused to be an “anti-semite”. When I was the directouer of Bojcott Israel in Sweden 2004 ISM and Pal sol org openly claimed that they could not work without theese Jewish marxists and go for a one state democratic solution. I then resigned 🙁

    • searching April 24, 2012 at 9:56 pm #

      you are right.
      There is a saying :” if you can beat them, join them”. Using the V-th Collumn tactic is a favourite move of Jewish Zionists. And a very effective one, along with the “divide and rule” one.
      They obviously can’t stop Palestian’s Resistsance Movement ,so they may as well try to control it.
      People like Abuniamah seem to be well equipped to do this. Educated, intelligent, young, articulate, determined, and he is American/Palestinian. Ideal. He can be trusted, and the trust he bought himself. While you earn yourself a trust of the public, your opinions count. People love to have their gurus/authorities they can look up to.
      So if Abuniamh praises, people praise (not all people,but many) if Abuniamh condemns , people condemn (not all ,but a lot).
      That’s what left likes . Follow the leader because HE IS the one that knows. He smiles, we smile, he frowns, we frown. Sort of “one for all and all for one” mentality.

    • who_me April 25, 2012 at 1:27 am #

      Lasse Wilhelmson

      “If I remember right Abounimah attacked Israel Shamir 2004 after he published Flowers og Gallie.”

      this is where they give themselves away as to what their role is. one can differ, but the constant pushing of infighting, shunning and slander these people do of others who are anti-israeli show these people are not interested in fighting israeli criminality, but instead, supporting it through a backdoor method.

  9. searching April 24, 2012 at 9:57 pm #

    “……For me, there is a terrible sense of deja-vu. Some ten years ago, the same Abunimah and his obese Lebanese partner successfully hunted me out of the pro-Palestinian movement, saying that without Shamir, they will win sooner. Ten years passed, and the movement did not get to the mark it was then.

    This repeat proves that Abunimah is nothing but a gatekeeper on the payroll of his Jewish Zionist friends. They pay him with the currency he appreciates: publicity and access to the Jewish-owned media. Totally unheard of previously, his articles began to be published in the important American papers. Some friendly Jews set him up with his Electronic Intifada. They keep the discourse within its permitted limits.

    This is expected: the Palestinian discourse is heavily policed one; the Jews can’t allow it to run free so they would not get unexpected results. They deform it by using their anti-zionist agents like despicable Roland Rance and feeble Tony Greenstein, and their Palestinian stooges like Abunimah. You can easily understand who is doing their work: they are allowed to appear in the mainstream media on regular basis, so they have to be enemies……………”

  10. searching April 24, 2012 at 10:38 pm #

    I actually read this whole ,very pathetic,written in a classic Soviet-propaganda style, letter that Abunimah and his faithful musketeers created.
    Yeah, there is a boogeyman. And his name is Zionism. He came from nowhere and boom, he dropped on Palestinians , kicked them out of their land , rules there, and nobody knows who he really is. except that his name is Zionism.
    Don’t dare to ask more questions, don’t dare to figure out what/who/why is hidden under his covers. His name is Zionism ,and that should be enough for everybody.
    He is an imperialist/collonialist/hates freedom,peace and justice, and his name is Zionism, my friends. Nothing more.It is “immoral” to ask for more,”there is nor room” for such questions, “we must NEVER do it” my dear musketeers. NEVER, ever. Understood. …………!!!
    Reminds me of a situation with Germans, that is Nazis. Nazis ,( never Germans) were responsible for WW2. Nazis did it and then , after the war, Nazis evaporated, Germans stayed.
    Of course whenever the subject of money, that was needed for the Holocasut Industry came out, than Germans were as guilty as Nazis. Since now money is almost paid off, we don’t use officially the term Germans when we speak of Nazis. Oh , no and no.

  11. Chester April 25, 2012 at 6:59 pm #

    Great discussion; it would nice to see some similarly intelligent debate about Palestine on the Beeb but am sure we won’t get it any time soon.