Activists who talk like zionists continue to betray Palestine
by Greg Felton
Saturday, April 21st, 2012
For some time now, I have been trying to get in touch with Ali Abunimah to ask him to explain his denunciation of Gilad Atzmon. I am used to Palestinian activists, Arab or non-Arab, attacking each other over this or that political or doctrinal difference, but this attack is worse than most.
Abunimah has been in the forefront of the anti-Zionist movement for years, and over that time has built a considerable reputation. His website, electronicintifada.net, is still an outstanding source for non-zionist (read: uncensored) news about the Occupation. Consequently, his denunciation of Atzmon was guaranteed to be influential and reach a large audience, thereby maximizing the potential damage to Atzmon’s reputation and scholarship.
The effect of the attack, though, has been suitably ironic. Rather than harm Atzmon’s reputation, Abunimah has elevated it beyond anything Atzmon could have done by himself. Outpourings of support have come from prominent activists like Kim Petersen, Alison Weir, Kevin Barrett, Mark Glenn, and Prof. Norton Mezvinsky. If Abunimah wanted to limit the reach of Atzmon’s arguments, he should have kept quiet and just let the hasbarats do what they do best.
What puzzles me is the manner of the attack less than the attack itself. For instance, why did Abunimah denounce Atzmon so maliciously, and did he seriously think he could escape condemnation? I wanted to put these and other questions to this champion of Palestine, but in the absence of co-operation I have had to come up with my own answers.
VILIFYING GILAD ATZMON
1. Smear and Run
I can understand that Abunimah might dissent from Atzmon in whole or in part, but to denigrate him categorically and mount a campaign to disavow him is evidence of personal animus, not scholarly disagreement. For example, after making passing reference to Atzmon’s new book, The Wandering Who, Abunimah gets personal:
“With this letter, we call for the disavowal of Atzmon by fellow Palestinian organizers, as well as Palestine solidarity activists, and allies of the Palestinian people, and note the dangers of supporting Atzmon’s political work and writings and providing any platforms for their dissemination. We do so as Palestinian organizers and activists, working across continents, campaigns, and ideological positions.”
The implication here is that Gilad Atzmon is not a Palestinian solidarity activist or an ally of the Palestinian people. In fact, Abunimah deems him to be an enemy of Palestine and tries to excommunicate Atzmon from the community of Palestinian activists. How is this constructive?! Whether or not Abunimah wants to admit it, Atzmon and he are on the same side, but such dogmatic hostility suggests strongly that the motive for the attack goes deeper than a squabble over activist orthodoxy.
2. The Attack
The next paragraph outlines Abunimah’s “case” against Atzmon followed by Atzmon’s comments (italics):
1. “Atzmon’s politics rest on one main overriding assertion that serves as springboard for vicious attacks on anyone who disagrees with his obsession with ‘Jewishness’.”
“It is a complete misrepresentation of my thoughts. Also was Freud obsessed with unconsciousness? Was Einstein obsessed with relativity?”
Abunimah provides no evidence to substantiate either the claim of vicious attacks or obsession. Could one argue that Abunimah is obsessed with Palestine?
2. “He claims that all Jewish politics is ‘tribal,’ ”…
No. I refer only to third category Jewish politics; hence, I do not talk about all Jewish politics.
In The Wandering Who, which Abunimah has not read, Atzmon divides “Jews” into three categories:
• Those who follow Judaism;
• Those who regard themselves as human beings that happen to be Jewish; and
• Those who put their “Jewishness” above all other traits.
The idea of political tribalism clearly does not apply to the first two categories, so Abunimah’s charge against Atzmon is without merit.
3. “…and essentially, Zionist. Zionism, to Atzmon, is not a settler-colonial project,…”
It is a settler project but not colonial for there is no Jewish mother state.
“but a trans-historical “Jewish” one, part and parcel of defining one’s self [sic] as a Jew. Therefore, he claims, one cannot self-describe as a Jew and also do work in solidarity with Palestine, because to identify as a Jew is to be a Zionist.”
This is complete nonsense!
In fact, the positions Abunimah attributes to Atzmon do not appear anywhere in the pages of The Wandering Who. Moreover, they are obviously ridiculous, given Atzmon’s careful distinction among Jews. Even a cursory read of Atzmon’s book could have prevented Abunimah from conflating “Jew” with “Jewishness”, but that implies that Abunimah was interested in depicting Atzmon fairly, but the end of the paragraph proves otherwise:
“We could not disagree more. Indeed, we believe Atzmon’s argument is itself Zionist because it agrees with the ideology of Zionism and Israel that the only way to be a Jew is to be a Zionist.”
3. Jewish sensitivities come first
Abunimah, like a lot of Palestinian activists, subscribes to the cult of Jewish victimhood, thereby allowing zionists to define the boundaries of acceptable discourse. One would expect a Palestinian activist like Abunimah to be less concerned with upsetting Jews than with exposing the role that Judaism and Jewish chauvinism play in the persecution of Palestinians. This is precisely what Atzmon does in The Wandering Who, but instead of embracing Atzmon’s candour and honesty, Abunimah sets himself up as “Judge, Jewry and Executioner” against Atzmon:
“We reaffirm that there is no room in this historic and foundational analysis of our struggle for any attacks on our Jewish allies, Jews, or Judaism; nor denying the Holocaust; nor allying in any way shape or form with any conspiracy theories, far-right, orientalist, and racist arguments, associations and entities. Challenging Zionism, including the illegitimate power of institutions that support the oppression of Palestinians, and the illegitimate use of Jewish identities to protect and legitimize oppression, must never become an attack on Jewish identities, nor the demeaning and denial of Jewish histories in all their diversity.”
Because Israel claims to be a Jewish state, and admits that it persecutes Palestinians as a matter of national policy, it is expected, even necessary, for all things Jewish to come in for criticism. This is especially true of the Holocaust®, the founding myth of the zionist entity.
For example, the number “six million” in connection with mass violence against Jews predates the Holocaust® by a quarter century. On Oct. 31, 1919, the American Hebrew published “The Crucifixion of Jews Must Stop,” a blithering screed by former New York Governor Martin H Glynn that began: “From across the sea, six million men and women call to us for help, and eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.” The number “six million” is repeated four times! Further instances of this number appear in the New York Times (July 20, 1921, p.2; Feb. 17, 1945, p.8; Jan. 9, 1938 p. 12; and Jan. 8, 1945, p.17).
Does Abunimah believe that anyone who denies the absolute, dogmatic facticity of “six million” is a Holocaust® denier? If he does, that makes him a zionist, not Atzmon.
Finally, of the 10 paragraphs, only three actually mention Atzmon by name. The majority of the atttack is devoted to Marxist-sounding slogans, boasts of the morality of the Palestinian cause, and congratulatory backslapping for anti-Atzmon activists. This imbalance leads me to conclude that the attack wasn’t really about Atzmon at all; rather, it seems that Abunimah wanted to boost his own image at Atzmon’s expense. This view explains why he put no effort into being accurate.
Why Abunimah would jeopardize his reputation so recklessly is unclear, but in the absence of a definitive response from him, I have to conclude that he felt personally and politically threatened.
Unlike Abunimah, Atzmon does not buy into the cult of Jewish victimhood or allow “Jewish sensitivities” to limit the boundaries of acceptable political discourse. Abunimah accepts Jews, Jewish history and Jewish culture as given and treats themwith kid gloves, but in Atzmon’s hands they are shorn of all moral privilege and subjected to searing, honest criticism. The Wandering Who is an unsparing psychological analysis of the Jewish mind and the sociopathic zionist state. It is essentially a rebuke to the inhibitory “reasonableness” that makes official Palestinian positions more like collaboration than liberation.
Abunimah went berserk on Atzmon because he saw in him the kind of honesty that, as a representative of Palestinian officialdom, he is unable or unwilling to articulate.
Posted by Greg Felton
on April 21, 2012. Filed under Activism,Palestine.
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272 Responses to Activists who talk like zionists continue to betray Palestine
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aemathisphd
April 21, 2012 at 11:56 pm
Am I to believe that, because previous newspaper articles about the persecution of Eastern European Jews happened to mention that there were six million of them living in the Russian Empire or the Soviet Union, you don’t believe six million were genuinely killed during WWII by the Nazis?
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 2:16 am
That is precisely what I mean–six million Jews were NOT killed by the Nazis. I don’t know why you feign surprise because I posted the same response to you at the end of (http://www.deliberation.info/wtfn-oscar-preview-2012) and you made no counter-response.
For your added information, the Polish government formally reduced the estimated number of dead at the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp from 4 million to 1.5 million. I don’t see any acknowledgment, much less mention, of this from zionist gatekeepers. That should raise a red flag about the credibility of the official narrative.
There is no credible evidence to support the myth that six million Jews died or that there were gas chambers. What we know about the plight of European Jewry during World War II was manufactured AFTER the war.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 2:39 am
I will send you a certified check for $10,000 if you can provide a single study of the Holocaust that both concludes that six million Jews were murdered and that bases that number on four million having been killed at Auschwitz.
We can discuss, if you like, the issues of how the numbers were compiled and of evidence for the gas chambers. Please be aware that this offer has been made to Mr. Eisen, and he has refused to discuss these matters, which doesn’t say much for the “revisionist” position.
Are you firm enough in your beliefs to take me up on this offer? Or to at least try to claim my $10,000 offer?
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 3:04 am
Since I dispute the 6 million number, and the 4 million number from Auschwitz I would he hard-pressed to find any evidence. One cannot find what does not exist. Your challenge makes little sense.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 3:15 am
We both agree that studies of the Holocaust report a death toll of six million, right?
We both agree that the number at Auschwitz was reduced from four million to 1.5 million, right?
All you have to do is identify a single study that:
(1) Reports the six million total; and
(2) Relies on the four million figure from Auschwitz to come to the six million figure.
If you can’t do that, then my point is that the six million figure was never based on the four million figure from Auschwitz.
I’m asking you to prove me wrong — to prove Holocaust historians wrong.
Now prove me wrong, if you’re so confident.
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 10:33 am
Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. The four million figure has to be included otherwise the alleged death toll would stand at 10 million! What is your basis for your bizarre claim that it isn’t included?
Also, there are no Holocaust® historians—only Holocaust® propagandists. If the Holocaust® were a truly dispassionate historical field of study then there would be no condemnation of those who sought to verify the claims made by post-war zionists.
Look at the hysterical, blithering, irrational smear campaign against Iran when it held a scholarly conference on the Holocaust®. Simple debate and critical analysis are not allowed, and this proves that the Holocaust® and the number of dead are the stuff of religious dogma, not rational scholarship.
I therefore decline your offer, because I am confident that the anti-intellectual goosesteppers of zionism have made my case for me.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 2:07 pm
Coward.
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Yeah, right!
Just like a hasbarat!
I’m not afraid of you or any intelligent challenge. I just refuse to waste my time.
The six million figure is dogmatically asserted but not proven, because proof can be analyzed. Zionists are careful never to put anything sensitive in writing, so your “challenge” is fraudulent.
You prove the six million figure then get back to me. Otherwise, don’t take up bandwidth.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 12:02 am
First of all, I’m neither a Zionist nor a hasbarat.
I’ll share for you why it would, indeed, be wasting your time to answer my challenge: because no historian who cited a total casualty figure of six million ever cited a four million death toll for Auschwitz.
E.g., Raul Hilberg, in [i]The Destruction of the European Jews[/i] (1961), cited a death toll of 5.1 million Jews. His number for Auschwitz? “Up to 1,000,000.” See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HinIpmliz2MC&pg=PA1320&dq=inauthor:hilberg+%225,100,000%22+auschwitz&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1IuUT7KOCoeg6QGa0NyJBA&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
By the way, any person not having read Hilberg — or at least the one-volume “student edition,” shouldn’t really be taking position on these issues.
Hilberg, by the way, was a Zionist: He offered a total death toll of 5.1 million, which he then justified according to cause of death, year of death, and country of origin.
His numbers are the best ones out there, though I think he low-balled the USSR figure by about a half million. Other historians who estimated in the range of six million and who justified it in a variety of ways were Martin Gilbert (Zionist) and Lucy Davidowicz (ditto). Most studies since then rely on one of those three in coming up with death tolls. Wolfgang Benz’s death toll, which is justified in a variety of ways, was more than six million.
This post proves a few things:
(1) The six million figure is an estimate.
(2) I provided four authors — three of them Zionists (Benz I don’t know about; he is very right wing) — who didn’t provide a figure of six million, though they’re all in that general range. Nevertheless, it’s clearly not a “dogmatic assertion,” since none of them used it, and all of them justified their figures. (Gerald Reitlinger’s [i]The Final Solution[/i] (1955) posited a range from 4.2 to 4.8 million, by the way. Don’t know if he was a Zionist either. And the very Zionist Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry (1946) came up with 5.75 million. Their figure was the one used at Nuremberg.
(3) You clearly don’t know what the hell you’re talking about with regard to the casualty figures for the Holocaust and how they were justified.
All that said, I am most comfortable discussing Hilberg’s figures, which can be found online in a few places. I am thus declaring the figures proved, unless you can prove otherwise. We can go country by country, cause by cause, however you like. But at this point, it’s up to you to suggest a line of debate over them. You’ve declared them fraudulent. I’ve provided several sources that indicate they’re not.
So put up or shut up.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:41 am
aema: “First of all, I’m neither a Zionist nor a hasbarat.”
Prove it.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 2:59 am
How do I prove I am not something?
Greg Felton
April 24, 2012 at 4:53 pm
I have put up already but it is you who won’t shut up. I am preparing a lengthy, conclusive response, so just be patient.
aemathisphd
April 24, 2012 at 4:57 pm
Well, it’s good to know that you decide when these things are finalized.
Greg Felton
April 26, 2012 at 10:14 am
Thanks for waiting,
You try hard; I’ll give you that. The problem, though, is that you missed the point of my comment, which was never my intent to “prove” or “disprove this number, but merely to show that Ali Abuminah’s pro forma endorsement of Holocaust® orthodoxy is incompatible with Palestinian activism. Consequently, your attempt to claim that “six million” is a real, defensible number is not only unconvincing, but also irrelevant.
First, relying so strongly as you do on Raul Hilberg demonstrates a limited appreciation of the “6 million” figure. The fact that many of the sources you cite in support of “6 million” are all zionist should lead you to disqualify them as irredeemably self-serving and intellectually compromised, since “6 million” serves the clear, political purpose of justifying the creation of Israel. Therefore I reject your claim that you have provided “proof” of 6 million.
If, as you claim, Hilberg does not include the “4 million” from Auschwitz-Birkenau, then he is in error. To argue otherwise makes a mockery of the holiest shrine to Jewish victimhood. Instead of trying to resolve the matter, you rationalize the problem away, but it won’t go away. As I said, the fact that the revision of 4 million to 1.5 million has not been reflected in official Holocaust® jargon, demonstrates that “6 million” is not tied to any empirical criteria.
Second, regarding the Nuremberg Courts, what if they were given a bogus figure that they simply chose to accept? Since the courts were set up to prosecute, some say persecute, German officials, how punctilious do you think prosecutors would have been about verifying powerful, but specious, anti-German/pro-Jewish evidence.
Take the contemporary example of the Bush junta forcing us to believe the exaggerated nonsense of yellowcake Uranium headed for Iraq! Many did. The falsified documents that supported the charge also served a deliberate political purpose, but who was going to speak up on behalf of Saddam Hussein? Joe Wilson merely challenged the validity of the claim, and look what happened to him and his wife! Could the same not have happened at Nuremberg, especially since German prisoners, like Auschwitz Commandant Rudolf Höss, were tortured to extract information? Who would have dared challenge pro-Jewish propaganda to defend a Nazi prisoner?
Therefore, you may not with any credibility cite the Nuremberg Courts as a reliable defence for “6 million” since doing so assumes that the figure was valid; it does not constitute proof of the figure itself.
Third, your claim that “6 million” is an estimate is petty quibbling, and virtually an admission of defeat in itself. The Holocaust® Industry, to use Finkelstein’s term, intones “6 million” with uncompromising religious severity. If the figure were defensible, there should be no zionist objection to free and unfettered enquiry into its validity. Instead, there is never any equivocation or discussion about the figure. No other figure is ever discussed or acknowledged. Investigation into it is proscribed, and those who attempt to do so are vilified, beaten or otherwise marginalized or terrorized. Ironically, it is the zionists themselves, by their craven, hysterical fear of scholarship, who provide the best evidence that the number is intellectually and factually indefensible.
Fourth, you may not simply dismiss as coincidence the repeated attempts of zionists to impose the 6-million figure on the world. I cited five sources, At least look at them. You have to account for the same, undifferentiated number coming up time after time? Then you could examine the famous story told by Adolf Eichmann in his memoirs about zionist leader Nahum Goldmann pleading with him to back up “6 million” because the Zionists needed it. Why did they? What was Goldmann’s interest? He could not have known the real number.
If, as I argue, the figure is apocryphal and artificial then you are obliged to explain this conspicuous repetition rationally, and address the fixation of zionists. The place to look is in Jewish mythology, in which the Holocaust® is now a major part.
aemathisphd
April 26, 2012 at 2:45 pm
In the interest of space, I’ve responded to Felton here:
http://spitecast.com/aemathisphd/felton1.html
aemathisphd
April 26, 2012 at 5:08 pm
(1) Repeating a falsehood doesn’t make it true.
(2) Hilberg is entirely relevant to the revised figure at Auschwitz; Piper revised the figure based, in part, on Hilberg’s work.
(3) Gas chambers certainly existed.
(4) I don’t care what the Zionists need or don’t need w/r/t the Holocaust death toll.
(5) I’ve studied Jewish mythology. The six million figure isn’t there.
Jay Knott
April 26, 2012 at 8:16 pm
‘Aemathisphd’ is not a ‘hasbarat’. That’s someone who consciously defends the state of Israel by producing falsehoods and diversions. He is more of a left-Zionist. Thanks for the link to your web pages, Andrew. They help a little my ongoing project of showing the link between Zionism and anti-fascist hype.
aemathisphd
April 26, 2012 at 10:15 pm
In reply to Felton’s last:
(1) It is a plainly idiotic assertion that eyewitness testimony is not evidence. Further, Hilberg did not rely solely on eyewitness testimony; he also used demographic data and documentary evidence. He also relied on the forensic investigations carried out at Auschwitz in 1946. That’s Error #1.
(2) You can reject Hilberg’s numbers if you like, but you’ve done nothing to disprove them. Nevertheless, I have proved that the reduction of the death toll at Auschwitz would not have reduced the total death toll of six million. You’ve offered no counterevidence of a single source claiming a total of six million depending on an Auschwitz toll of four million.
That’s Error #2.
(3) Gas chambers have been proved over and over again, and I’m happy to go chamber by chamber. But, of course, you won’t.
(4) I can also prove intent, i.e., the evolution of a Nazi plan for mass murder. If you’re game, then I am too.
(5) You can declare yourself winner all you like, but it simply does not make it true.
(6) Your failure to provide even a single example of Jewish mythology demonstrating some important aspect of the number of six million is precisely that — a failure. The fact is that I studied Jewish mythology along with kabbalah and Talmud in New York in the 1990s. I can provide names and references if you’d like. You, however, cannot provide even a single example.
Eldon
April 24, 2012 at 7:01 pm
Looks like greg Felton and Paul Eisen, got the same answers’ once they have to come with some evidence.
“I just refuse to waste my time.”, “did not have the time to look into it”, I am not an historian”…… any more banal school pupils excuses.
It’s know for years, that you are wasting your time, so why get to this point.
See were revisionism got to.
few Weirdo’s in racist blogs, that’s the achievment of 60 years of revisionism.
Greg Felton
April 26, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Regarding Aemasthsphd’s latest post, I repeat:
“The Holocaust® Industry, to use Finkelstein’s term, intones “6 million” with uncompromising religious severity. If the figure were defensible, there should be no zionist objection to free and unfettered enquiry into its validity. Instead, there is never any equivocation or discussion about the figure. No other figure is ever discussed or acknowledged. Investigation into it is proscribed, and those who attempt to do so are vilified, beaten or otherwise marginalized or terrorized. Ironically, it is the zionists themselves, by their craven, hysterical fear of scholarship, who provide the best evidence that the number is intellectually and factually indefensible.”
I don’t really care if Aemasthsphd believes the 6 million figure or not. He appears to do little else than hide behind Hilberg. Hilberg is irrelevant to the revised figure of Auschwitz, or the issue of the non-existence of gas chambers. I am less interested Hilberg than in the fixation zionists have for 6 million, which cannot be passed off as “coincidence.”
The Holocaust® industry never refers to 5.1 million, 4.2 million or any other number. It is always 6 million, and deviation from that is not tolerated; it is even cause for persecution.
We are talking at cross purposes. The actual number of Jews killed is unimportant in the grand scheme of things: what matters is the zionist NEED for six million to justify the existence of Israel and the fear of subjecting that number to scrutiny. I would suggest aeamethisphd study Jewish mythology to see how “6 million” is related to the biblical conditions for Israel’s creation.
Greg Felton
April 26, 2012 at 10:01 pm
Since I can’t find a reply link to amaesthphd, I’ll have to do it here.
Your refusal to look at the political motives for “six million” proves that you cannot or will not entertain counter-arguments. I have no doubt that Hilberg did considerable research, but he relied heavily on eyewitness testimony, and that is not evidence. If I reject Hilberg’s numbers, then your argument collapses.
Gas chambers were NEVER proven, merely asserted, and there is NO proof that the Nazis sought to exterminate Jews. (The Wannsee Conference proves nothing) Hiter and co. wannted Europe rid of Jews, true, but never mandated that they be murdered. This expulsion of Jews was the basis for zionist/Nazi collaboration, and the deliberate zionist sabotaging of rescue efforts for Jews to anywhere other than Palestine.
My intent was NOT to open the can of the Holocaust® but to expose the relexive servility of Abuminah and to expose the irrational nature of the number.
If you won’t investigate the conspicuous repetition of “six million”, or the hysterical violence of zionists toward investigation of the matter, then this exchange is over and I have won. (You clearly have NOT studied Jewish mythology.)
searching
April 22, 2012 at 12:18 am
I think there were 6 millions and one (1).
And a half.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 12:23 am
“The Holocaust was Uniquely Unique in Unique Ways that Can Only be Uniquely Understood, which is Unique,” says Michael Oren in Unique Interview”
)))
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/
Yes, it was so unique that only the unique people in a unique way can comprehend its uniqueness
and explain this uniqueness to all non-unique people who have no unique rights to question its unique uniqueness.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 12:30 am
It was unique in some ways and not unique in others. Unique in so far as it was the first “assembly line” genocide. Not unique in that the motivations for undertaking genocide were relatively typical.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 12:47 am
it wasn’t first assembly line genocide.
Have you heard of Armenian genocide, Ukrainian Hunger genocide, ( this was really an assembly line genoicide to take away all food from million’s of people and let them die a slow death of hunger)
Iam sure you haven’t heard of Vendee , the first organised , massive genocide in the modern history during cruel French Revolution
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3964724/Vende-French-call-for-revolution-massacre-to-be-termed-genocide.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvs-QniMLxo
How dare you usurp all the rights to an unique and very special genocide??
And what do you do with it??
Created the Holocaust Industry, and a State that opressess and annhilates another nation in the broad daylight????
And then you demend pity of other nations???
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 12:55 am
“Have you heard of Armenian genocide, Ukrainian Hunger genocide, ( this was really an assembly line genoicide to take away all food from million’s of people and let them die a slow death of hunger)”
Clearly, you don’t understand the definition of “assembly line.”
Most of the Armenians were shot or killed with hand weapons. The Ukrainians, as you point out, were starved. That’s not assembly line murder.
“Iam sure you haven’t heard of Vendee , the first organised , massive genocide in the modern history during cruel French Revolution
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/3964724/Vende-French-call-for-revolution-massacre-to-be-termed-genocide.html”
Actually, I’m perfectly aware. It might interest you to know that in their book on the Holocaust, Van Pelt and Dwork cite it as an important precedent.
“How dare you usurp all the rights to an unique and very special genocide??”
I did no such thing. I said unique in some ways, not unique in others. Learn to read.
“And what do you do with it??
Created the Holocaust Industry, and a State that opressess and annhilates another nation in the broad daylight????”
I didn’t do those things. I know it’s easy for you to lump all Jews together, but I’m not responsible for those things.”
“And then you demend pity of other nations???”
I demand nothing, particularly of you.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:14 am
but its uniqueness and its unique numbers
can not be questioned by a non-unique people, who are not unique enough to question this unique uniqueness???
Only the unique people are unique enough to explore this unique uniqueness ,and its unique numbers ,which makes this unique case quite unique per se.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 1:45 am
http://www.westviewpress.com/book.php?isbn=9780813344065
Plenty of non-Jewish authors therein
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 5:37 am
“it was the first “assembly line” genocide”
Namibia: Germany’s Forgotten Genocide
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 5:43 am
I was referring to techniques of killing, i.e., gas chambers.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 7:33 am
So why did you not say that you were claiming that these deaths were different because they took place in gas chambers?
Are you also suggesting that the genocide of the Herero was less devastaing for them than the Holocaust was for Jews? That somehow the Herero suffered less?
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 8:48 am
No, what he’s claiming (though he’ll never admit it – in fact he probably doesn’t know it) is that it just matters less. The Herero are simply not as important as Jews.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 2:11 pm
No, I’m saying neither.
I thought what I meant by “assembly line genocide” would have been better understood. My mistake.
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 9:27 am
I don’t think you mean ‘unique’, you mean ‘special’
Anyway, the only thing special about the Holocaust is the amount it has been falsified and exploited.
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 10:34 am
Precisely.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 2:10 pm
Really? Then back up your allegations!
You and Eisen are the laziest and most dishonest Holocaust deniers I’ve ever encountered.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:05 am
you know people are sick and tired of this Holocaust thrown down their throats like it was the only massacre in the human history,
and on top of it’s being exploited shamelessly by your people to the maximum.
How come not too many people know about Vandea??
Why it hasn’t been taught in the public schools all over the world?
The bloody French Revolution, that took away about 5 millions people is given as an example of something right and just, while in reality
it was the bloodbath that killed many innocent people.
Holy Inquisition took lives of about 6000 people over the course of 500 years, and it is regarded by many as an example of a terrible Catholic Church bogeyman.
Learn your history and make some honest conclusions. Stop wailing in self pity
and oh-poor-exceptional-me-and-my-exceptional- suffering attitude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3SyBGEjn8Q&feature=related
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 1:46 am
Who are you talking to?
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:50 am
to your unique uniqueness.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 1:52 am
I claim no such thing. Address me and not the Jew who lives in your head.
etominusipi
April 22, 2012 at 6:29 am
perhaps we should beware of these discussion threads always obeying an entropic tendency to find their way back to familiar slanging matches. debates about all these matters are important, but have little to do with the specifics of Greg Felton’s excellent critique of Ali A’s organization of an unprovoked group malediction against Gilad.
i have not seen Greg’s writing before, but one needs a surprisingly small sample of prose to diagnose a sane, humane and truth-respecting mind at work. one does not need many mouthfuls to know if a dish is pleasing to your palate.
amongst the sine qua nons of the higher levels of intellectual and emotional maturity are (1) a lack of vindictiveness (2) an approach which strives to find the truth even if it seems initially unwelcome, rather than merely to select and distort facts in order to validate an already formed opinion which owes more to prejudice or indoctrination than to the weighing of evidence (3) a willingness to acknowledge and correct any errors that may have been made, for whatever reason (4) a tolerance for a certain diversity of opinion (5) an uncompromising rejection of all that is dishonest and unjust (6) a clear-sighted love for humanity and nature
even in the heat of argument we should remember that, since we all share equally in our membership of the human race, we should usually have something to learn from our opponents, and that we should always have a lot to learn from those who have achieved sufficient intellectual and emotional maturity to be a shining beacon to the rest of us simply as human beings, irrespective of the particular formulations they espouse at a point in time.
in these terms the attack on Gilad was singularly ill-judged and distasteful, and likewise the recent mutterings of vilification against Norman Finkelstein.
let us value those who seek the impartial truth, and who are not fearful of the consequences of speaking it, as their merits deserve. if we fail to do so, we are all the losers.
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 8:41 am
he should have kept quiet and just let the hasbarats do what they do best.
HasbaRATS, referring to Jews as rats, I guess The Ethernal Jew is a big favourite of Greg Felton.
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 10:40 am
Nice try. I refer only to disseminators of zionist propaganda (hasbara) derisively as rats. Conflating Jews with zionists is itself standard hasbara. For the specific definition of hasbarat, see
(http://www.gregfelton.com/media/2009_09_30.htm)
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 11:20 am
“why anyone would spend hours a day to prostitute themselves for Israel. Money, of course. Ilan Shturman, deputy director of the Israeli foreign ministry’s hasbara department (!), told an Israeli business newspaper in July that US$150,000 had been allocated for the first stage of a campaign to seed the Internet with hasbarats:
$150,000? I sure hope Israel is spending alot more than that on PR. That doesn’t sound enough to even set up an office not to mention paying thousands of disseminators of Zionist propaganda.
Greg Felton
April 22, 2012 at 11:38 am
Why spend a lot of money when you virtually own governments?
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 11:50 am
Just governments? Not the media the banks Hollywood…?
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Yes Cosmo – Jews are inappropriately influential in the media, the banks, the government, Hollywood – the whole lot.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 4:57 pm
What makes it “inappropriate,” Paul?
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 5:26 pm
Because in the main it’s not good for the world. Jewish aims tend to be in conflict with the aims of the people amongst whom they live.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 5:44 pm
You are correct, Paul.
Their aims usually are not parallel, but perpendicular with the aims of the people amongst whom they live.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 5:48 pm
Be specific, Paul. Provide examples.
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 6:13 pm
Contemporary wars in Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan, Historic wars like WW2 (and probably US intervention WW1 as well), mass immigration, pornography, secularism, feminism, psychoanalysis, Boazian anthropology, Frankfurtian Social sciences, counter-culture morality, Marxism, terrible weather -you name it.
aemathisphd
April 22, 2012 at 7:41 pm
“Contemporary wars in Iraq/Libya/Afghanistan, Historic wars like WW2 (and probably US intervention WW1 as well), mass immigration, pornography, secularism, feminism, psychoanalysis, Boazian anthropology, Frankfurtian Social sciences, counter-culture morality, Marxism, terrible weather -you name it.”
I’ll give you Iraq, but Iraq and Afghanistan?
World War II and WWI?
How is mass immigration bad for America? I’d argue it’s our greatest strength.
The rest are positives, IMO, and hardly purely the work of Jews.
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 5:59 pm
By the way regarding your comment the other day about Arabs not allowed in the army.
Among the outstanding soldiers who were chosen this year to attend the ceremony at the President’s Residence is an Arab from east Jerusalem.
http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=4028
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 6:10 pm
Yes, and I also know a Palestinian who slagged off Gilad.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm
Ho hum – he sounds like a brainwashed numpty:
and he’s serving in a racially segregated unit:
So well done Cosmo, you give us the exception that proves the rule
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 6:34 pm
The point is that on this subject Israeli Arabs and ultra orthodox have an unfair discriminating advantage, they are not obliged by law to spend years in the army and then decades in reserves, yet if they want to they can volunteer.
Tracker serve share the same shifts in the same jeeps ,eat sleep in the same outposts as non Bedouin soldiers. I have spent a lot of time with them.
Bedouin or Druze Joining the army is not rare but an Arab from East Jerusalem doing so is. You can be killed there just for selling a house to a Jew.
The Palestinian that sold the house in Hebron to a Jew will probably be executed by the Palestinian government in the Apartheid Palestinian Authority.
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=56525
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 6:56 pm
“Tracker serve share the same shifts in the same jeeps ,eat sleep in the same outposts as non Bedouin soldiers.”
You remind me of the Jewish Marxist who told me about the Polish Jews who actually worked in the same facrtories as the Poles.
“You see”, he said eyes aglow, “Jews aren’t different!”
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 7:06 pm
He claims racial segregation and I am wrong to point out that is not case?
Your problem by the way is with the antisemitism with in the Polish society or the poor Jews of Poland?
One of my grandparents was in the Polish army before moving to Israel.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 7:35 pm
“He claims racial segregation and I am wrong to point out that is not case?”
No, the IDF claims that: “composed solely of Bedouin”
Druze soldiers used to think their uniform will exempt them from the racism prevalent in Jewish Israeli society. They ought to seriously rethink this assumption.
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Roy Bard
During their training they might be all Beduin and their direct commander is also a Beduin tracker but they work with other forces on patrols. How about those British army Gurkhas brigades, Also racial segregation?
The incident you reffer to was wrong and I condemn it just like you do. If you look at the link to the Israeli site there are about 800 responses to it almost all of them share our views. This is not a practice of the IDF, but a single incident that should not have happened.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 12:40 pm
How about $2000 for students to perform 240 hours of troll duties in the comfort of their own homes? Does that make you happier Cosmo?
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Cosmo is going to ask for a raise.
He, and his alter ego Aemathisphd,
work , oh so hard, overtime.
Watch out guys , you may develop carpal tunnel syndrome.
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 2:31 pm
You guys really have an infatuation conspiracies don’t you?
Don’t really know who Aemathisphd is but he is not me. Anyway it would be money horribly spent to try and change the very few hardcore minds here. Might as well be paying people to post pro Israel comments on the Hamas messege boards.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 2:48 pm
So you are slaving here out of the goodness of your honest heart???
Cosmo
April 22, 2012 at 3:00 pm
Slaving is a strong word but yes I am here speaking my mind because I guess in some way I enjoy it just like other people posting diffrent views.
Laura Stuart
April 22, 2012 at 11:21 pm
No Cosmo – peddlars of misinformation and lies or apologists for ethnic cleansing are rats what ever tribe they think they belong to.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 10:09 am
Do you support the ethnic cleansing of West Bank and East Jerusalem Jews?
Seems like most Palestinians would are rats according to your definition.
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 2:06 pm
I do not support ethnic cleansing full stop. The solution would be to remove the IDF and the Israeli state and let the Jews Christians and Muslims get on with living with each other as they have for centuries.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:18 pm
That would probably amount to self-ethnic cleansing since it is probable that a large number of Israeli Jews would not accept living in one-state “Israel” that is not a “state for Jews,” and they will vote with their feet primarily out of fear.
Gilad said at one point that in the future there will come the time when the Israeli Jews will have to hope for Palestinian mercy.
Mercy is not a familiar concept to the Israelis–they don’t practice it and cannot believe others will.
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 2:42 pm
Muslims have taken Jerusalem before without ethnic cleansing.
So the only thing keeping the Jews in Israel is the disproportionate weight of weapons the IDF hold to oppress Palestinians resisting occupation. Does that sound like a winning forumla to anyone sane? Nothing can be held indefinitely by force.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Not in 1948, the cleansed Jerusalem for every last Jew there and did the same every place they conquered in the rest of Israel.
The Palestinian president said Palestine will be Jew free.
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Who is the Palestinians president that said so ?
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:11 pm
Abbas
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Cosmo caught out telling non kosher porky pies ! Whoduv thunk it !
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4122473,00.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/abbas-palestinians-will-accept-only-jerusalem-as-our-capital-1.265812
OK so NOT Abbas not a Palestinian president.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:23 pm
Abu-Mazen (AKA Abbas) said he was willing to have an international force such as the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO), but added, “I will never agree that there be Jewish soldiers in NATO, and I will never agree that there will be a single Israeli among us on Palestinian soil.”
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 3:30 pm
I agree with Abbas (which is a first), no Israeli soldiers. Have you got a link for your claim? After all you have revealed yourself as a liar.
So if no Israeli can remain on Palestinian soil, the Jews will have to live as Jewish Palestinians because all of the soil there is Palestinian it is only the State that is Israeli.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Demanding that there be no Israelis soldiers in Palestine is eminently reasonable.
Demanding no Jewish solders involved in a peacekeeping force if they are not Israeli citizens is bullshit. Would anyone accept Bibi making a demand of no Muslim soldiers?
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:58 pm
aemathisphd
It was later reported he retracted that claim of no Jews in NATO force after the backlash, but not the fact no Israeliss will be allowed to remain as part of the Palestinian state.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 4:18 pm
That’s reasonable. There should be no Israeli nationals living in a Palestinians state who do not accept that they are, at that point forward, Palestinian nationals. Same goes for any Palestinians living in Israel after an agreement is negotiated. I see nothing unusual about that.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Why am I a liar?
His point is that all Jews currently living in what would become Palestine will have to leave.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/138856#.T5VqSNUzdPs
Paul Eisen
April 23, 2012 at 2:31 pm
I’m afraid that’s a delusion. These are not the same kind of Jews who lived with Christians and Muslims in pre-zionist Palestine.
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 2:49 pm
I think they could potentially be the same kind of Jews once they were disarmed
I expect those Jews who a/ feel a religious connection to Jerusalem b/ feel a connection to the land of Palestine or c/ don’t have an alternative passport might learn to live in peace with their neighbours if the playing field was equal.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:07 pm
Gays have no rights in Palestine and their lives are in danger if they hold hands in the streets. Journalists are thrown to jail for criticizing or insulting the government. That is really what you would like Tel Aviv to turn to?
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 3:14 pm
Cosmo which Palestinian president said Jerusalem must be free of Jews?
Hopefully a MUSLIM religious takeover not some secular western puppet like Abbas who has no integrity or honour. If religious values are applied nothing can go wrong.
(I would hope no gays would be walking down the street holding hands, I have only seen such a thing once in London never mind the Holy Land.)
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Where Muslim religious values applied when for hundreds of years Jews were not allowed to enter or pray in their holy sites in Hebron and the Temple Mount?
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 3:34 pm
Cosmo proof please – since you are a proven liar.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Cave of the Patriarchs
Until 1929 Jews were forbidden from entering the site, and were not allowed past the seventh step leading up to the tombs. Following the 1929 Hebron massacre, access by Jews was severely restricted by British Mandate authorities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs
I remember watching a lecture where a professor which studied Jews in Jerusalem under Ottoman rule talked about Jews being sentenced for lashes for going on top of a roof to look at the Temple Mount.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 22, 2012 at 8:49 am
If there is the slightest opportunity to turn a comment thread into a slanging match about the Holocaust then certain people will inevitably attempt to hijack that thread to lecture us all.
I am not that certain.
What does interest me is the way Ali Abunimah has revealed himself to be ethically and intellectually bankrupt. His condemnation of Atzmon is what one would expect from a Zionist not a Palestinian activist (although he was born in America).
Who does Ali Abunimah really serve? Is it really the Palestine cause or it the American/Zionist cause?
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm
I think he thinks he’s serving his own cause.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 22, 2012 at 9:00 am
One has to wonder whether Ali Abunimah is one of the AIPAC approved Palestinian activists?
To me there seem to be 2 golden rules to activism. (Which I totally dis-agree with)
1. Never criticise Palestinians.
2. Never criticise Jews.
This because their special victim status gives them immunity. At deLiberation there are no sacred cows. We encourage everyone to be criticised and debated.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 22, 2012 at 10:32 am
An astute observation and one which needs addressing.
For me If a Palestinian Activist goes out his way to defend the Special status of the Holocaust®, it is a dead give-away that they are not genuine, and are not really Pro-Palestine.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:27 pm
Excellent article on the subject by Rick Siegel.
A must read.
http://www.voltairenet.org/Permission-to-examine-Jewishness
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 1:35 pm
Also available here.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 1:42 pm
“The effect of the attack, though, has been suitably ironic. Rather than harm Atzmon’s reputation, Abunimah has elevated it beyond anything Atzmon could have done by himself.”
,initiated in his book, makes me very suspicious of Abunimah’s credentials, agenda , background and INTENTIONS.
Maybe Abunimah, secretely, wanted to help
Gilad to promote and advertise his book by attacking it??
Anti-advertisment is a pretty good form of adverteisment.
Ok , bad joke:)
I think ,there are only two possible options in this case:
1. Abunimah is a complete ignoramus and a full of himself moron. Doubt it though. His thinking and logical skills, although far from perfect,are definately existing.
2. Abunimah, is a Zionis’s stooge.
Being a fact that,he, as an Arab, forbids/condems/criticises the honest examination of Jewishness,Judaism etc that Gilad, ( a Jew after all
His vicious attack on Gilad and his book brings the next question. Who gives a secret paycheck to Abunimach and why???
There is always more than meets the eye.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 1:54 pm
I don’t think Ali Abunimah is receiving a paycheck – rather I think that Gilad explained it in his interview with Silvia Cattori:
searching
April 22, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Abunimah is an American born guy with supposedly Arabic/Palestinian roots.
He was not growing up on the Occupied Territories.
He has no business to stifle/repress the discussion on Jewish identity etc, unless he wants to please certain Powers.
The fact that he does it so vehemently
makes me very suspicious of his actual intentions.
Napoleon once said: ” if you have four conspirators , two of them are informers/stooges”.
Napolen wasn’t a stupid guy as well, he knew what he was talking about.
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 2:24 pm
I have no doubt that Abunimah came under some pressure to write that letter. The whole campaign against Gilad has been an desperate attempt to silence him – using threats, mass emailing campaigns and pressure on groups and venues not to host him. Much of that pressure has come from self-declared Jewish Anti-Zionists.
Atzmon also discusses that in the Cattori interview:
I have no doubt that Tony Greenstein danced around his living room in ecstasy when Abunimah published that letter.
I also think that it did Abunimah more harm than good. Has he really so much contempt for Palestine solidarity activists that he thinks they need to be told who is kosher and who is not. Does he really imagine that we need his permission to attend meetings and that it is he, not us who should decide with whom we are to engage?
However much Abunimah rails against the authoritarianism of the PA, he showed us all that he has the same tendencies as Mahmoud Abbas…. I hope he feels at least a tinge of hypocrisy next time he labels Abbas a quisling….
searching
April 22, 2012 at 2:40 pm
If he succumbed so easily to the pressure of so called self-declared Jewish anti-Zionists, then it shows that he has not too much of moral integrity, and he is fairly easy to maneuver and play around.
Which ultimately shows that he can be used and bought. He is not the first one ,and not the last one. History is full of them.
He could’ve just said to all those
Jewish A-Z,” I want to stay away from it. Deal with it if YOU have a problem”.
The fact that he actively joined their hysterical choir shows that he likes their tune.
A Question. Why?? What is the reason behind it??
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 2:55 pm
“years of Jewish (intellectual) hegemony within the Palestinian solidarity discourse” (ibid)
searching
April 22, 2012 at 3:06 pm
so if he succumbs to this (intellectual) hegemony, he is not too much of an honest, intelligent freedom fighter.
Another toy easy to play around???
Roy Bard
April 22, 2012 at 3:16 pm
A genuine freedom fighter wouldn’t be trying to censor a debate …. Abunimah didn’t even bother to read the book before he stamped his authoritarian little foot :-/
searching
April 22, 2012 at 3:49 pm
What Abunimah did was very low, cowardly and unhonorable.
He used in his pathetic “Letter to disavow Gilad”, ALL the classic SOVIET propaganda moves.
First he made Gilad into a bad boy of the Movement, a bogey man, “an enemy of the state”, then he called loudly for a major punishement ,that is a massive, unfied rejection of Gilad and his work.
Does he feel like he is the Big , Almighty Boss of the Movement??
A chosen, exeptional Kahuna, who as the only one ,knows what is right and wrong for the Movement.??
I hate when somebody uses a big words like
“there is no room for…” or “we must never….”
Classic soviet propaganda tactics.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 4:09 pm
I think that Abunimah’s EGO got bigger than a cause he is fighting for.
Pride comes before fall ,as they say.
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 11:19 pm
The pressure on Abunimah comes primarily from within.
He wants to make it in the west so he knows what he has to do.
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 12:22 am
So far, all Pls on the list who were asked about their familiarity with my writing admitted not reading me at all… The next question is who wrote this clumsy text for our “leading exile Pls academics”?
searching
April 22, 2012 at 2:21 pm
If I were Big Hasbara Boss, I would use an Arab guy ,with well known credentials as a “Freedom fighter” , to undermine Gilad’s book.
Critisim of his book coming out of Jewish’s mouths is/was treated as something normal.
The criticism of Gilad’s book , coming from a well-known “Arab freedom fighter “, tells some, that there is some validity in it.
Even the distinguished Arab doesn’t endorse the discussion on Jewishness/Judaism ,and other very taboo subjects. There is no key that opens this Secret Sesame. At least we should not look for them. Turn your cheek the other way.
Hiring Abunimah would be a very good tactic move on the hasbara’s side.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 3:00 pm
One may want to treat only the symptoms of a disease, and another may want to go deeper,
and try to find out the actual casues of the illness.
Gilad, by publishing his recent book, was trying to start an honest discussion not on the symptoms, but the actual casues of the disease called the Zionim.
It is a very legitimate inquiry that should be explored thoroughly, deeply and honestly.
The fact that the Zionists object is of no surpise, that some of so-called anti-Z object also doesn’t come as a suprise ,(many of them are ,after all , very attached to their Jewish Identity and feel like exploring it publically, in the daylight, may bring too many unwanted skeletons out of the closet), but the fact that the Arab “freedom-fighter” objects makes no sense to me.
Unless. Unless . Unless..look what I wrote in above comments.
etominusipi
April 22, 2012 at 4:48 pm
does money really talk? or is it just that the Rotschilds are ventriloquists?
causation may be multiple, especially when a smokescreen of complex events may conceal hidden operations by the skilful wagers of war by deception.
for sure, the Ali A letter seemed almost as if it could have been penned by a censorious neo-trotskyite AZZ of the tonyle style so the nurturing context for this forged document is indeed the ‘years of Jewish (intellectual) hegemony within the Palestinian solidarity discourse’ but…
‘…perhaps there was also the operation of a secret weapon, one which by the application of psychonic force fields, renders bodies in its target zone more than usually pliable. over a period of time such a compound substance could be quite subtly molded, especially if the required spectrum of functional flexibility was compatible with inherent aspects of its prior programming and material Ur-structure. a generalised formula useful as a first approximation was already expressed in 628 by the Byzantine Pseudo-Aristotle of Halikarnassos in his ‘politikon paralegomenon’: (ambition=carrot)+(dirty secret/s=stick)+(vanity)”
Phillip K Dickens ‘Earthgate’
Jonathon Blakeley
April 22, 2012 at 10:07 pm
lol Phillip K Dickens he is much funnier than Charles Dickens but has similar fascination with the mundane and macabre.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 5:36 pm
The very fact that Gilad book caused such an amount of an unusual UNITY between all zios, anti-zios, anti-zio-zios, secular/agnostic/orthodox/reformed/left/right-and-in-between Jews ,(and even some well known Arab “freedom fighters” )
as to publically condemn it shows that Gilad hit the very right nail.
He opened “the Chamber of well guarded Secrets”.
Shame on you Gilad
searching
April 22, 2012 at 6:27 pm
Gilad by publishing his book tried to initiate an open “War for Discovery of the true Truth”.
The Truth that is vital to understand the real, deep grounded reasons/causes of the Zionists’s wars and Power.
It looks like the “war for the Truth” is not that important for supporters of the “war for the Peace”.
The “war for the Peace” lasts for many years, with very minimal if none substantial effects.
Israel further expands,it steals more land, oppresses more people, influences more politicians, casues more wars, threates a new ones etc. It looks like in the ongoing “war for peace ” the Truth is being sacrificed on the altar of war itsel as an inconvenient obstacle for some.
searching
April 22, 2012 at 7:53 pm
It looks like Gilad’s starting “the war for discovering the True Truth” is not a welcoming aspect by many due to an unspoken Taboo of the matter.
In a way the “war on acheiving peace” is something that Zionsts expected. It is a normal reaction that people ,who are severly opressed will resist and the ethical people of the world will supoort this resistance.
So Zionsts had to allow this game of “peace negotiations” to play from “then to eternity”.
Like a cat and mouse game. Cat is chasing, mouse is hiding , occasionaly the white flag is being risen and a cat is warned. And then the game starts again.
The rule of this “war on peace” changed a little, but the concrete effects of it are, unfortunately ,almost none.
Ther is no peace in the Midddle East. Palestinians rights are abused everyday, the world’s politicians occasionaly wave their finger in disaproval, but nothing has been done.
Maybe its time to target Zionists ,and their “willing Jewish executioners” from all over the world , from a different angle???
Gilad’s book does it and thanks God for that.
Gilad Atzmon
April 22, 2012 at 6:30 pm
Hello everybody, I was touring the last 3 days,,, I see this now, pretty incredible piece by Greg.
Here is my take..
We had 2 Iron rules in the Pls solidarity discourse:
1. Never mention the ‘J word’
2. Never criticise a Palestinian
The success of The Wandering Who dismantled rule 1.
Abunimah’s fatal mistake, dismantled rule 2. He is now subject to harsh criticism from every possible corner.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are now liberated. CONGRATULATION…
Gilad Atzmon
April 22, 2012 at 10:46 pm
I totally agree ….
Paul Eisen
April 22, 2012 at 11:23 pm
Cosmo,
“One of my grandparents was in the Polish army before moving to Israel.”
Your grandparent was a Pole right? So wjhat’s so interesting in his serving in the Polish army?
Because he wasn’t a Pole, he was a Jew and therein lies the problem – a problem which paradoxically Zionism made a serious attempt to solve.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 9:21 am
And how about Israeli Arabs? You would agree with the likes of Avigdor Lieberman that they are not really Israelis?
Do you agree with him that the best solution for both people is to draw the broders in a which keeps as many Jews on one side and as many Palestinians on the other.
Move Israeli Arab towns currently on the Israeli side of the pre 1967 lines to the Palestinian state as part of the land swaps.
Paul Eisen
April 23, 2012 at 11:32 am
I don’t say Polish Jews aren’t Poles – it was the polish Jews who refused to be Poles.
I can hardly believe I’m having to say this to you.
The only solution (and it’s not going to happen) is for Israeli Jews to either forget that they’re Jews and be the same as other Palestinians of different faiths. This would involve at the very minimum with cutting off all ideological ties with Jews outside Israel/Palestine. Left to themselves they might perhaps see it as in their interests to live in peace with their non-Jewish neighbours.
And by the way, I often view most Israelis as just more victims of Jewish power. After all, it’s them doing the (tiny amount of) dying and its them who are internally brutalised – not the Jewish supremacists inside and outside of Israel.
Cosmo
April 23, 2012 at 3:15 pm
Is there any other people in the world you advocate should lose their self determination?
Laura Stuart
April 22, 2012 at 11:29 pm
Sad when Palestinians want to blend in with their host societies so much so that they become more politically correct and feeble than the natives. At least in Palestine they still have enough integrity to call a Yahood a Yahood.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 12:02 am
Say it in English, Laura: Call a Jew a Jew.
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 12:13 am
The fact that Palestinians attempt to blend is actually totally natural. Think of the our Zios and AZZs, they claim to be in the Galut for 2000 years and yet, for some reason they still find it impossible to blend…Funny isn’t it?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 12:39 am
Only funny if you blame anti-Semitism entirely on Jews. Do you?
P.S. You should probably translate “Galut.”
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 6:21 am
Here is where it becomes a problem for me. Jews who keep their religion and their religious identity refusing to blend in or compromise their religious beliefs deserve a lot more respect in my opinion – same applies to Muslims. Those Muslims who leave their religion and embrace western culture except where they identify as a victim (Palestinian)because it is integral to their career,I have no respect for. I guess the test would be a/ would you fight for justice? b/ would you go back and live there if the right of return was realised?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 6:27 am
“Jews who keep their religion and their religious identity refusing to blend in or compromise their religious beliefs deserve a lot more respect in my opinion.”
Do you call these Yahoodi Yahoodi?
Laura Stuart
April 23, 2012 at 7:30 am
I am not an Arab but if you ask your Palestinian child who murdered their Daddy or their little sister they will be able to tell you “the yahood”.
To me, a religious Jew is a Jew. The real question is what defines an atheist who calls himself Jewish?
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 12:15 am
Aemathisphd, in English, you actually call a spade a spade …
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 12:43 am
Yes, I’m aware. I speak English.
Ani m’daber gam m’at Ivrit.
Un a bissel Yiddish.
Et beaucoup de francais.
Alles klar?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 1:31 am
I just want to clarify my position on the matter of Holocaust denial being embraced by Paul Eisen, Greg Felton, and others.
I don’t have a problem with people denying the Holocaust provided that they’re honest in their motivations and are willing to put their beliefs to the test. What I’m finding in trying to engage Eisen and Felton is that neither of them is willing to do this. With Eisen, we get lazy fall backs on Jewish stereotypes and sheer laziness with regard to examining the evidence. With Felton, so far at least, I’m hearing a lot of catch phrases and shifting of the burden of proof, but not a lot of substance.
I think it’s clear to nearly everyone with half a brain that Paul Eisen is deeply self-loathing and intellectually dishonest.
I haven’t heard enough from Felton yet to make any kind of judgment. He seems willing to admit his position, as does Eisen. But his motivations are murky to me, and he doesn’t seem (yet) willing to defend his position.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:25 am
“I don’t have a problem with people denying the Holocaust provided that they’re honest in their motivations”
“Motivation?” Apparently seeking to discover the truth must have an “ulterior motive.” Or, with your keen psychological insight, you detect “deep self-loathing…”
You might have unwittingly hot on a little something on self-loathing. Because there are traces of “you” in all of us, we all–non-Jews included– may occasionally feel self-loathing when we detect them and fight to improve yourselves. Too bad you are incapable of this self realization.
The Holocaust™ 6-million lie is no longer tenable. Get used to it.
“Not only does the ’6 Million’ figure become more untenable but the numbers of the Holocaust industry are rapidly approaching those of Holocaust deniers.” …
“Indeed, the field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud.” …
»Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg cast a plague on both sides, sneering that “it’s not about justice, it’s a fight for money.”« …
“In recent years, the Holocaust industry has become an outright extortion racket.” …
»In what has become a mantra of the Holocaust restitution racket, this constituted “the greatest robbery in the history of mankind.”« …
»”If everyone who claims to be a survivor actually is one,” my mother used to exclaim, “who did Hitler kill?”«
(Norman Finkelstein, The Holocaust Industry, Verso, London 2000, pages, 127, 55, 87, 89, 94, 81)
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 3:03 am
Ask Norman Finkelstein whether he believes there was a Holocaust in which six million Jews were murdered, half in gas chambers.
Go ahead and Google Finkelstein along with Lady Michele Renouf — you’ll see not only that Finkelstein refused to appear at the Tehran Conference along with Holocaust deniers, but that he also personally upbraided Renouf for her idiotic beliefs — beliefs that you, apparently, support.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 3:54 am
Why don’t YOU ask him if the quotes are correct or not.
You always dither like this and babble.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 4:22 am
I didn’t say the quotes were incorrect.
Fact is that Finkelstein does not deny the facts of the Holocaust. Deal with it.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:19 am
What’s amazing is how you “deal” with it.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 5:21 am
Are you laboring under the misconception that Norman Finkelstein agrees with you that six million Jews weren’t killed during WWII by the Nazis, using, among other methods, gas chambers?
That’s a yes/no question. Should be easy to answer.
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 9:11 am
Who cares what Finki thinks about a historical chapter he clearly doesn’t want to deal with… what kind of a lame argument are you pushing here?
However, if you look into it, you will find out that Finki is against H denial laws, and he also praised David Irving as a leading expert on the Nazi era…
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 2:33 pm
Try to keep up, Mr. Atzmon: Ariadne cited Finkelstein to support her point, not me.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 3:01 pm
A bit of a problem with reading comprehension? Or your usual “slight of hand.”
1. I cited from NF writings.
2. You countered with ‘that’s not what he thinks/agrees with (implying he may have amended some of the points he previously made).
3. Gilad says ‘who cares what NF thinks about it, but also draws your attention to other statements of his, obviously inconvenient to you.
Got it? Read S L O W L Y because I will not be able to provide you with reading help every time.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 3:10 pm
You still won’t admit you’re wrong about Finkelstein. Amazing. The man has categorically denounced Holocaust denial. What part of that don’t you get?
Paul Eisen
April 23, 2012 at 3:16 pm
“Try to keep up”
You like to say that, don’t you?
Do you really think people here are having trouble keeping up with you?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 3:28 pm
I think Ariadna does, yes.
Greg Felton
April 26, 2012 at 10:17 am
Finkelstein is irrelevant to the matter. The truth or falsity of “6 million” does not rest on his views. You are continuing to obfuscate matters by appealing to convenient authorities. This is like denying the WTC was deliberate imploded because a certain “expert” structural engineer says otherwise.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:31 am
The 6 million is a magical figure–you can deduct 3 million (Auschwitz) and it doesn’t decrease, you cam also ADD 6 million–already dying at the end of WWI, and it is still 6 million at the one and only Holocaust, except that here again, there were many holocausts against the Jews but they don’t dim the brightness of the Holocaust™:
http://balder.org/judea/Six-Million-140-Occurrences-Of-The-Word-Holocaust-And-The-Number-6,000,000-Before-The-Nuremberg-Trials-Began.php
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 2:59 am
Boy, look at you panic!
I already explained why decreasing the death toll at Auschwitz doesn’t effect the death total of six million — the figures were never related to one another.
Learn to read.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 3:52 am
“Boy, look at you panic!”
Isn’t that what you are fond of calling “projection”? You are indeed projecting.
What would be the opposite of “Cui bono?” Qui perdit? Who loses? I lose nothing. The panic is all yours.
“I already explained why …..the figures were never related to one another.”
Indeed they were related to nothing except an obsession with this number and the idea that it would echo in Jewish minds worldwide.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:37 am
1911
Originally Posted by The Zionist Congress, 1911: [...] complete annihilation for six million people [...]
1911
Originally Posted by The Jewish Criterion (Pittsburgh), September 1st, 1911:
[...] the downfall lf six million creatures [...] for no war has ever destroyed six million human lives.
1912
Originally Posted by American Jewish Year Book 5672 (23 Sep 1911 – 11 Sep 1912), page 308:
Russia has since 1890 adopted a deliberate plan to expell or exterminate six millions of its people for no other reason than that they refuse to become members of the Greek Church, but prefer to remain Jews.
{Apparently the Russians wanted the Jews to become Greek…]
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 3:06 am
You claim to have been raised in the Orthodox Church but are apparently unaware that it is widely referred to as the Greek Church in other countries.
Quite a genius, you are.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 4:05 am
You have a hard time of keeping track of the times you made a fool of yourself.
You were trying to teach me about the Christian Orthodox Churches. This was irony reminding you of that.
It is not “widely referred to” as Greek Church in other countries–trying to be an expert again?–in fact there is NO country where the Russians or Serbian, Bulgarians, Romanians, Armenians are “referred to” as belonging to the Greek Church. It’s a mistake attributable to the writers of the Jewish Yearbook’s ignorance and confusion.
In Israel the Christian Orthodox happen to be represented by a Greek church, maybe that’s where the confusion comes from.
Can’t reciprocate. I never took you for a genius. Chances are diminishing you might ever give me the opportunity to change my mind.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 4:33 am
“You have a hard time of keeping track of the times you made a fool of yourself.”
Oh dear. Eva Braun is going to make a fool of me!
“You were trying to teach me about the Christian Orthodox Churches. This was irony reminding you of that.”
Ironic, how? That you have no idea of the theology of the church to which you claim to belong?
“It is not “widely referred to” as Greek Church in other countries–trying to be an expert again?–in fact there is NO country where the Russians or Serbian, Bulgarians, Romanians, Armenians are “referred to” as belonging to the Greek Church. It’s a mistake attributable to the writers of the Jewish Yearbook’s ignorance and confusion.”
Tell it to Martin Luther. At the Leipzig debate in 1519, debating the issue of Cyprian’s declaration of nulla salus extra ecclesiam, Luther defended the Orthodox Church as not being outside salvation. In doing so, he called them “Greek Christians.” He was not alone in using this designation. The Orthodox churches were commonly known as the Greek Christian churches colloquially.
Incidentally, the Armenian church is entirely different: It is not a church that falls under the auspices of the Patriarch of Constantinople. Rather, it accepts the authority of different ecumenical councils. Here it is closer to the Coptic Church and Ethiopian Church.
“In Israel the Christian Orthodox happen to be represented by a Greek church, maybe that’s where the confusion comes from.”
Nope. In fact, given that the Armenian Church in Jerusalem is represented by an entirely different patriarch, I’d think you’d be able to distinguish. Guess not.
“Can’t reciprocate. I never took you for a genius. Chances are diminishing you might ever give me the opportunity to change my mind.”
Oh dear. Insulted again!
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:15 am
“Eva Braun”…
I see that you took my advice and tried to expand your limited vocabulary (“asshole,” “moron,” “coward”) a little. It’s not synonymy as I advised you but eponymy–still it shows effort. A plus for this.
“you have no idea of the theology of the church to which you claim to belong”
A minus here, I’m afraid.
Look up the word theology. I only explained to you that the Christian Orthodox Churches are autocephalous and national–no theology differences. I didn’t teach you any theology.
“The Orthodox churches were commonly known as the Greek Christian churches colloquially.”
Maybe in yeshivas. Certainly not among the Christian Orthodox anywhere except in Greece and.. Cyprus.
Yes, Virginia, there are Greeks in Cyprus. In half of it.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 5:22 am
“Certainly not among the Christian Orthodox anywhere except in Greece and.. Cyprus.”
I didn’t say they were.
You don’t read very well, do you?
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 4:17 am
The typical picking of a lateral issue–Greek Church– to avoid the TOPIC!
So much like you, who yet have the chutzpah to call other people dishonest debaters.
Don’t you have any comment on the astounding coincidence of the repeated number of times precisely 6 million Jews were either in dire straights or dying since before WWI and before the “definitive” 6 million deaths?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 4:35 am
Yes. I have an explanation. It’s called a coincidence. Two points:
(1) For many years before WWII, there were, in fact, six million Jews in either the Russian Empire or USSR.
(2) I discussed the issue of how common other numbers were in referring to European Jews elsewhere:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/04/thomas-dalton-responds-to-roberto_29.html
You’re going to have to try much harder.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:23 am
Ah, yes… a coincidence. No, in fact 140 coincidences.
What a fantastic premonitory power of the collective subconscious!
They felt it would happen, what? 139 times before it did and when it did it was just so!
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 5:37 am
So let me get this straight: Is it your contention that the big bad Jews not only faked a genocide, but in preparing to do so, they primed the pump by subliminally feeding the hapless goyim the six million figure a few dozen times? Seriously?
Any idea how freaking crazy that sounds?
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:40 am
Of course it sounds ‘freaking crazy”–because it is.
Like everything you distort, lie about and then claim the bother person said it. Does the realization that (1) it is freaking crazy and (2) you twisted it to be so make you start to think you might need help? Professional help.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 5:51 am
If that’s not what you’re saying, then what are you saying?
Be clear. Because it sounds an awful lot like you’re saying that this hoax was in the planning for decades.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 6:06 am
This is it, then I’m turning off the light and leaving you to whine and shout in the dark:
–the hoax got going after the war and not right away–which is why there is no mention of the 6 milion in Churchill, Eisenhower, etc.
–the 6 mil figure was not in and of itself important for Goyim, as you immediately lied, claiming I said that–for the Goyim 5 or 7 would have been the same. The figure is only meaningful for the Jewish sheeple, for whom it had long had a memory imprint, scriptural as well as in the repeated previous crying ‘wolf’ episodes.
The holocaustic religion–like every religion–needs magic numbers… the trinity, the 6 million…
Bye
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 6:22 am
“The figure is only meaningful for the Jewish sheeple, for whom it had long had a memory imprint, scriptural as well as in the repeated previous crying ‘wolf’ episodes.”
Um. Scriptural? Care to back that one up?
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 1:01 pm
Pleased to see the only problem you have with my message is one word. Shall we haggle a bit and then shake on it?
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 4:12 am
aema: First of all, I’m neither a Zionist nor a hasbarat.”
ariadna: Prove it.
aema:How do I prove I am not something?
_______________________
If you say you are not X and Y you must have a definition of X and Y.
Explain how you fail to fulfill the definition.
Since you made us aware (quite suddenly) of your PhD degree our expectations of your abilities have skyrocketed– you should be able to explain why you do not belong to either one or both ‘legs’ of a definition–the proximate genus and the specific difference.
Go!
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 4:24 am
I’m not a Zionist because I don’t believe in Zionism.
I’m not a hasbarat because there is no such thing. I’m not a hasbarnik because Israel doesn’t pay me, nor do I do PR for Israel.
Prove you’re not a Nazi.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:03 am
I know, I know that GW Bush has a Master’s from Yale but still…
Do you REALLY have a PhD?!? Was it an online university accredited in the Bahamas?
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 6:24 am
Prove you’re not a Nazi.
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 9:13 am
You are a actually sayan, willingly promote and assist the tribal cause.
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 2:40 pm
You are actually a zayin. Translate that for the people, Mr. Atzmon.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:58 am
I cannot tell if it is any of these:
–your lying, twisting, falsifying other people’s statements, playing semantic games (despite your less than stellar vocabulary)
–your transparent evasion shticks and overall dishonesty as a debater
–that niggling, sleeve-tugging insistence of the guy with halitosis that pursues and pesters people at a party
–your arrogance and self-sufficient conceit that armed with wikipedia you can teach Greeks about Christian Orthodoxy and just about anybody about anything
–your rude and juvenile heckling and insults
or if it is the whole package that makes you a somewhat less appealing collocutor than you might have been otherwise.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 5:59 am
I forgot to say that I meant that in the nicest way
aemathisphd
April 23, 2012 at 6:20 am
Darn. Because I was just beginning to really, really like you.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 12:59 pm
That would scare the hell out of me
who_me
April 23, 2012 at 9:01 am
it looks like the major effect of abunimah’s attempt to shut down atzmon was his own exposure as a covert zionist gatekeeper. his masters yanked his strings and he did a little dance and now everyone knows abunimah is just another puppet of the those special chosen ones.
Gilad Atzmon
April 23, 2012 at 9:22 am
At least now we have the full and conclusive list of devoted book burners within our movement.
searching
April 23, 2012 at 11:29 am
there is a song to the occasion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWDyFwDSI4w
who_me
April 23, 2012 at 4:27 pm
both of those letters, abounimah’s, and the earlier one published in mrzine, are great sources of who are covert zionists. besides failing in their main purpose, these letter signers failed in another way. they no longer have the credibility they once had. they are damaged goods. collaborators. when one sees something written by one of these people, one can expect there will be at least subtle zionist support of sorts within that writing. by signing those letters, there is good reason to now treat anything these people write to have some subtle level of support for zionism and israel or the jewish corporate power establishment.
writing those letters was a further sign of desperation by the zionist rulership. many of those who signed had built up their credibility and reputation over many years. to just throw away all that to try and discredit just one author shows the level of panic within that corrupt establishment. they remind me of what i’ve read of the nazis becoming more fanatic, repressive and irrational towards their own, near the end of ww2, when the soviets were closing in and it was obvious the nazis were losing badly.
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 2:12 pm
Conclusion:
Abounimah is an AIPAC PP (Palestinian parolee).
searching
April 23, 2012 at 6:34 pm
Very interesting, a must watch movie.
I am constantly amazed by the beauty and dignity that Palestinians continue to preserve despite the horrific conditions that they have to endure for so many years.
http://mondoweiss.net/2012/04/60-minutes-profiles-palestinian-christians-michael-oren-falls-on-his-face-defending-israel.html
searching
April 23, 2012 at 7:23 pm
and here is a short article that shows encouraging hasbarishchiks into action.
“….We expect that “60 Minutes” will select examples that are not a reflection of Israeli policy towards Christian but rather of security concerns (ex: issues related to the security fence and issues related to demolition orders for projects that were not properly licensed). These examples will attempt to manipulate the viewer to believe that Israel pressures the Palestinian community to flee the region.
Once we have seen the program we will be able to provide you with more relevant examples to counteract the allegations made on Sunday. Please feel free to contact us in the interim if you require additional information and please see the resources below.
We HOPE that CBS WILL BE FLOODED WITH responses through their inboxes, facebook, twitter and mail after the program to EXPRESS DISCONTENT if it is as biased as we anticipate…”
http://www.jewishfederations.org/page.aspx?id=253745
ariadna
April 23, 2012 at 8:56 pm
If I were a hasbara mouthpiece I’d feel patronized and even insulted by this.
Am I not, as a loyal sayan, trusted to remember my lines by now?
Must I be spoonfed zioprop for every single occasion for fear I’d mess up even the slogans I’ve been repeating for yes?
Eldon
April 24, 2012 at 7:15 pm
Abounimah was a good Palestinian for all of you, till he dared to open his mouth about Mr. Atzmon, and now he is been nailed here……
What Happened fellows, suddenly he is the devil himself a Zionist, a traitor, you name it, all because he is criticizing Atzmon……
Give me a brake, you are all a bunch of hypocrites.
The guy is not stupid, he is much more intelligent then most of you, I am sure he knows exactly what he is doing.
The issue that most of you here, cannot accept criticism and all of you are acting as a bunch of Hyenas, just shows who you are (new journalism and debate…..)
Did anyone here even spend a minute, to think what his motives are or why did he wrote his letter.
He is the same person with the same views, that all of you respected before the letter.
Maybe you should ask yourself questions you never have the ability and the guts to ask , as you cannot think outside of Atzmon box…….
Roy Bard
April 24, 2012 at 8:59 pm
Are you a supporter of Ali Abunimah, or are you the real hypocrite here?
“Did anyone here even spend a minute, to think what his motives are or why did he wrote his letter.”
Heh we had a whole thread about it ……. he didn’t even bother to read the book before he stamped his foot. The criticism is of his authoritarian McCarthyite behaviour and nobody who acts like he did is exempt from being called on it.
We’d happily debate him but a} he won’t and b) he never read the book.
Roy Bard
April 26, 2012 at 8:56 am
And here’s Ali Abunimah doing a Greenstein and suggesting that most Jews are anti-semites ………
Is he going to be calling for the disavowal of Ali Abunimah soon?
We should be told!
Laura Stuart
April 26, 2012 at 9:11 am
Effeminacy is obviously a problem amongst Palestinian exiles too, time to send them home and teach them to be tough and militaristic.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 2:03 am
Jay Knott: [aema is not a hasbara mouthpiece] because… “That’s someone who consciously defends the state of Israel by producing falsehoods and diversions. He is more of a left-Zionist.”
I can’t quite get what distinctions you’re trying to make or why.
So defends it UNconsciously?
He claims he is not a zionist because he doesn’t “believe in zionism”– I don’t think he will accept the niche you gave him.
At any rate what shall we call the hasbara he peddles: left hasbara?
To use Bibi’s hackneyed adage: he walks like one and he quacks like one.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 2:04 am
Can you please provide a single example of “hasbara” I have peddled?
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 2:20 am
You have to be KIDDING! Every single post of yours is zioprop, excluding mathisisms like “asshole,” “nazi,” “idiocy,” and I ma not entirtely sure those are npot in fact zio-emotion too.
Make it easier on everybody, you, who say “in the interest of saving space” and then post several long posts:
YOU give a single example of a statement you made referring to Israel which is not zioprop.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 3:57 am
You’re pathetic.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 4:12 am
I forgot to list this one, although you rely on it quite a bit as an “I told’em!” kind of repartee.
So: “asshole,” “nazi,” “idiocy,” “mental,” “pathetic”
Not an overly impressive display of linguistic ease for a phD–by that way, given your literal-mindedness I should specify that was a litosis.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 4:12 am
litotis
Jay Knott
April 27, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Ariadna: to be precise, Mathis does not defend the state of Israel directly by producing falsehoods. He does defend the current dominant view of 20th century history, which indirectly helps the state of Israel, by producing diversions. The web pages he linked to show his involvement in anti-fascism, the exaggeration of ‘hate group activity’ in the USA. It’s a bit of a stretch to call this ‘hasbara’. I patiently argue that Western society is so biased in favor of Jewish racism, compared to white European supremacy, that the industry dedicated to scaremongering about the latter in effect gives cover to the former (see pacifica forum). This conclusion is reinforced by the overt tolerance of Jewish racism within ‘anti-hate’ circles, particularly in the USA. Shouting ‘hasbara’ doesn’t quite get across the complexity.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Trying to argue complexity with the likes of Ariadna is like trying to teach a cat to snorkel.
Laura Stuart
April 27, 2012 at 4:55 pm
http://www.distinctivecatjewelry.com/image_manager/attributes/image/image_1/41663456_9472951_thumbnail.jpg
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Nice!
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 6:09 pm
For “complexities” you’re the go-to man, no doubt about it.
How many buttons on the Waffen SS uniforms? Ask aema.
And since the advent of wikipedia you are no less than a savant– in the ‘savant syndrom’e sense of the word (hope wikipedia has it for you).
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 4:30 pm
Further, I contend that I do not defend any type of racism — including Israeli racism.
Jay Knott
April 27, 2012 at 4:45 pm
I didn’t say you do defend any type of racism
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 5:47 pm
“Mathis does not defend the state of Israel directly by producing falsehoods.”
So you are saying he is a sly operator?
“He does defend the current dominant view of 20th century history, which indirectly helps the state of Israel, by producing diversions.”
You cite the “current dominant view of the 20th century” as if that were a spontaneous, unrelated and only coincidental cause for the major powers’ support for Israel, instead of the CONSEQUENCE of Jewish power (lobbies), money and massive and relentless hasbara on behalf of zionism.
But you, who know for sure, ”patiently argue” that it is “the current dominant view of 20th century history” he is holding so he is only indirectly and—well, just about unintentionally, child of the 20th century that he is, helping the state of Israel.
I don’t care if you package aema as a consumer of second- rather than first-press hasbara oil.
“The web pages he linked to show his involvement in anti-fascism, the exaggeration of ‘hate group activity’ in the USA. It’s a bit of a stretch to call this ‘hasbara’.”
“Hasbara” is a generic term covering any and all propagandistic activity on behalf of Israel. I do not see this description of his posts as an exaggeration at all and his links to anti-fascist groups are no shield at all.
He exhibits all the reflexes of the hasbarnik: ‘Others are worse, why focus on Israel,” “9/11” and the Holocaust™ official narrative are sacred, anyone who quibbles even in details or dares to suggest Israeli involvement in the former is demented or an anti-semite, as well as his multiple diversionary tactics, which in your book must be the same 20th century nondenominational reflex love for Israel.
“Shouting ‘hasbara’ doesn’t quite get across the complexity.”
Ah… the “complexity”… the AZZ are quite complex, or the “left-zionists”– the taxonomy you offered in a conciliatory (and patient!) manner the other day…
Talk about shouting: “I do not defend any type of racism — including Israeli racism” does not solve the contradiction between defending a RACIST state like Israel and beating your chest with “anti-fascist links” either.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 6:07 pm
“He exhibits all the reflexes of the hasbarnik: ‘Others are worse, why focus on Israel,”
I think that’s a legitimate question. You’re a Pole; what the hell has Israel done to Poland that has you so pissed off?
““9/11” and the Holocaust™ official narrative are sacred”
I’ve said neither thing.
“anyone who quibbles even in details or dares to suggest Israeli involvement in the former is demented or an anti-semite,”
The truth hurts.
“as well as his multiple diversionary tactics, which in your book must be the same 20th century nondenominational reflex love for Israel.”
I’ve done this where and when?
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 6:19 pm
“You’re a Pole; what the hell has Israel done to Poland that has you so pissed off?”
You clearly have no idea how much this says about your incapability to step out of the tribal box and try to be HUMAN. If only members of the injured group have the right to protest against the aggressor then we are just separate tribes or even packs of animals. NO EMPATHY?
Furthermore it shows the exclusiveness and the supremacy of the tribal mentality: the rest of the world is to be indicted about not helping the Jews enough during the holocaust but it should stay silent about the holocaust perpetrated by Israel against Palestinians.
I said: ““anyone who quibbles even in details or dares to suggest Israeli involvement in the former is demented or an anti-semite,”
You reply: The truth hurts.
I agree with you literally. That’s what I think is the desperate attempt to silence any such discussions/research: tremendous fear of potential damage to Zionism/Israel/Jewish power.
I don’t think you’re doing too well here. You should have let Jay help you.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 6:40 pm
I would think that any person who finds fault with Israel would find greater fault with other governments and nothings who commit the crimes crimes or greater crimes within the same categories.
I don’t see you doing that.
Further, you continue to construct straw men: I never denounced anyone for not helping the Jews during the Holocaust.
Take a deep breath and try again.
Jay Knott
April 27, 2012 at 7:10 pm
Andrew: I think I’ve said this before, and I don’t know if Ariadna agrees with my perspective: the reason for ‘singling out’ Israel is just like the reason for singling out the American South or South Africa because of racism: we’re involved in it. I think Sudan is doing bad stuff, but not with my money. I’m not harassed by Sudan’s supporters. I won’t lose a job offer by going to a meeting of critics of Sudan. Mel Gibson has more balls than George Clooney!
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 7:14 pm
Then I would ask you to consider the following:
Far more than the money with which the U.S. supports Israel are the subsidies and other favors that are received by China as a result of our awarding it most favored nation trade status.
Nevertheless, China is the worst abuser of human rights in the world. I won’t go into the litany of horrors except to note that it encompasses ethnic cleansing as well — check out what they’ve been doing in Xinjiang, particularly recently.
So where’s the outcry? Because that’s your tax money funding racially motivated ethnic cleansing, is it not?
Jay Knott
April 28, 2012 at 12:46 am
Andrew: the USA’s relationship to Israel is completely different to its relationship to other countries. In the case of other countries, one can point to cynical realpolitik – ignoring human rights violations for economic reasons. I’ve visited Xinjiang and agree with you about it. The USA trades with China, Saudi Arabia etc. because they have goods for sale. It supports Israel because of Jewish ethnic power. China doesn’t need a powerful Lobby accusing presidents of Sinophobia to blackmail them into kowtowing to it.
So we have to combat Jewish supremacy at home, and in our heads. That’s what this site helps us do – deconstruct the blackmail. You often make factually correct points against some dumb ideas, but, unlike Atzmon, you do not contribute to the ‘consciousness-raising’ process. The struggle against white racism also had some dumb ideas in it.
aemathisphd
April 28, 2012 at 1:48 am
Whether you like it or not, Jay, anti-Semitism plays a fundamental role in this whole process, as does guilt.
Israel gets away with what it wants to not because of Jewish supremacy. That’s an effect and not a cause. The real reason that it gets away with want it wants to is guilt over the Holocaust, which is why people here are so desirous to deny it. Without that guilt, it would be difficult for Israel to blackmail anyone.
And why is guilt such a powerful motivator? Because few people with any brains in their heads doubt that anti-Semitism is a fact of history and the Jews haven’t been to blame for it. But rather than accept that fact of history, the people here would prefer to blame the Jews for their own nonexistent suffering.
If you want to break Israeli power, which is different from Jewish power — and, in fact, bears a much stronger resemblance to Tutsi power in east Africa (a comparison I’ve made for you before) — the first step is accepting Jewish history for what it is and moving forward from that point. Certainly figures in Israeli politics have and continue to exploit anti-Semitism and the fears of rank and file Jews to promote their cause; demonstrate that those fears are truly invalid and you can win the fight. Denying the Holocaust and blaming the Jews for the ills of the world won’t work.
Finally, if you truly believe that Israel wields greater power than China, ask why the U.S. government does not recognize the Taiwanese government and why the Dalai Lama is a persona non grata among American presidents. China doesn’t need to manipulate American guilt because it owns our debt, as does Saudi Arabia. As always, money is the greatest motivator. But if the Chinese or Saudis had been through something remotely resembling the Holocaust, you can guarantee they’d use that instead. Again, if you want proof, look at Rwanda under the RPF.
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 3:08 am
aema:
“anti-Semitism plays a fundamental role in this whole process, as does guilt.
Israel gets away with what it wants to not because of Jewish supremacy. That’s an effect and not a cause. The real reason that it gets away with want it wants to is guilt over the Holocaust.”
That is definitely NOT hasbara.
Not because it is absurd, which it is, but that would not disqualify it.
It is all… you–so asperger-like in its total lack of clues of what makes humans tick that it makes me wonder how a Martian could have moved about as long as you have totally undetected.
“Holocaust guilt” indeed! That’s the explanation and Jewish power in the US is only its consequence, a sort of kiss-and-make-up gift.
All American governments from the WWI on, the same governments that exploded atomic bombs in Japan, interned American citizens who were ethnic Japanese, conducted unethical experiments on blacks in Alabama, kept Jim Crow laws until the 60s, waged countless unprovoked wars great and small all over the world causing the deaths of millions of innocent people, those governments, one after another, were racked by sobs of…. Holocaust guilt and said to themselves: it is only fair to let the Jews take over, run our foreign policy, dictate our monetary policy, the works. It is the least we can do, especially as… “anti-semitism plays such a fundamental role”…
The world in your head is extremely simple.. I am amazed you babble about “complexities.”
Jay Knott
April 28, 2012 at 3:30 am
Andrew: now I get it! Israeli power has nothing to do with Jewish power. It’s more like that powerful Rwandan ethnicity, the Tutsis. I pledge to ‘accept Jewish history for what it is and move forward from that point’. Now, I realise, the problem with Palestinian solidarity in the Western countries is, it hasn’t recognized the history of Jewish suffering enough. Take the British Palestine solidarity committee’s response to holocaust deniers – it merely expelled them. It hasn’t started a campaign to bring British law into line with other European countries, and actually imprison them.
I will do my bit to ensure Palestine solidarity in the Western countries demonstrates that fear of anti-Semitism is ‘truly invalid’ so we can ‘win the fight’. I will disavow Atzmonism, and rejoin the mainstream of Palestine solidarity. I confess to thoughts like “hang on, isn’t that what we’ve been doing since 1948, and unlike the struggle against white racism, opposition to Jewish racism has been a complete failure?” But now I realise that these thoughts are a product of my previous failure to see that ‘anti-Semitism is a fact of history’, that Jewish supremacy is ‘an effect and not a cause’.
aemathisphd
April 28, 2012 at 3:34 am
Tell me, Jay: How are you any different from Ariadna?
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 4:08 am
Don’t fight, guys, it breaks my heart and then I will be wrecked by guilt. Not THE Guilt, just a little pedestrian form of it.
It makes me cringe to see aema playing indignation like a kid in a school play.
aema , listen to me: I don’t mean to sow discord and distrust in Jay. He is highly intelligent but I have met many people in academia in who were super intelligent but almost worthless as teachers. Teaching is a special and separate skill.
He did his best, not saying he didn’t but you are a student with special needs.
I am a good teacher, I am not boasting. I can guide you. I have played zionists on big stages in my career and got rave reviews. I can teach you to be believable.
I will make you the non-jew (we’ll play your story of the Catholic confirmation but ever so subtly not shouting it to the rafters as you did), non-zionist (with reasons, not obdurately mumbling “because I don’t believe in it”), objective and fair critic of Israel who calmly dismantles the anti-semitic hysteria and unwarranted criticism of Israel around you that will have all the stupid, ignorant, Jew-haters who post here eating out of your hand.
What do you say?
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 7:51 pm
Why, Jay, you must have spent too much quality time with aema and it shows.
Pure Hasbara:
The reason we’re singling out Israel … that we subsidize it (not your words–you said “my money”).
It is pure hasbara to channel the dialog into an “explanation” of why Israel is being “singled out,” while the other says it isn’t. Yeah, let’s talk about WHY we do what you say we don’t….
To talk about Israel–a nuclear rogue,* apartheid** state, warmongering to incite another (nuclear) war, that holds 1.5 million people captive in Gaza (which they “left”) making life near-impossible for them by sealing it from the outside world,*** and continues unabated to expulse the local population from illegally occupied lands on which it builds “settlements” and yes, last and only last because it is not at the forefront of consciousness of most Americans, to allow it to do all that on $8 million/a day in military aid alone****— to talk about that at this time of grave danger to the peace of the region and the world is NOT to “single out” Israel.
_________________
Catcalls to laugh at:
*Pakistan is one too, why not talk about Pakistan?
**No, it’s not, look, there are Palestinians in the Knesset
*** Israel has the right to defend itself
**** Why, China gets most favorite nation status, how much does it cost in trade?
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Look, Butch: I don’t care about your “catcalls to laugh” at valid points.
“To talk about Israel–a nuclear rogue,*”
Pakistan is a nuclearly armed country that ROUTINELY and RECENTLY acts against U.S. security interests. That is not disputable.
“apartheid** state”
That a military power practices apartheid policies in a military occupation does not make the country an “apartheid state.” I realize I’m shouting into a vacuum to try to make distinctions, but there it is.
“warmongering to incite another (nuclear) war”
I don’t think anyone believes that if Israel goes to war with Iran that it is going to use nuclear weapons in that scenario.
“that holds 1.5 million people captive in Gaza (which they “left”) making life near-impossible for them by sealing it from the outside world,***”
I’m not exactly sure what your point is here. Doesn’t Israel have a right to defend itself? Or is it unique in that extent?
I’m not defending Israel’s Gaza policy, by the way. I think it’s reprehensible. Rather, I’m questioning why you see the two as related.
“and continues unabated to expulse the local population from illegally occupied lands on which it builds “settlements”
No asterisk, dearie?
“and yes, last and only last because it is not at the forefront of consciousness of most Americans, to allow it to do all that on $8 million/a day in military aid alone****”
You’re a smart lady: You can figure that one out yourself.
“— to talk about that at this time of grave danger to the peace of the region and the world is NOT to “single out” Israel.”
Sure it is.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 8:30 pm
Thanks for expanding a bit on my Catcalls to Laugh at.
I don’t think you’d get rave reviews as a stand-up act so it is best not to TRY to be funny on purpose. Just be yourself–it works.
I think the bit about the US trade with China being comparable to subsidizing Israel has possibilities as a comedy routine, especially on the Borscht Belt. It needs a bit of work and, like any comedy of the absurd it needs to be readily accessible. If I have time I’ll try to help you since, no offense meant but language is not your forte.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Alright…
Here are our ongoing trade deficits with China:
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
MFN trade status directly contributes to that. Last year’s trade imbalance with China allowed them essentially to pocket 300 billion dollars.
What do they do with that money?
They run the largest police state in the world and they spread the repression to the hinterlands, as well as the Han population, effecting ethnic cleansing in the process. They deny reproductive rights, as well.
Paul Eisen
April 28, 2012 at 3:58 pm
No, Dr Mathis, Pakistan does nowhere near tjhe damage to the U.S. as does israel. And Pakistan and Muslims do not run America – Jews do.
There is no political power on this earth as currently threatening to the well-being of the world as Jewish power and its current weapon-of-choice, Israel.
Jewish power and Israel must indeed be singled out.
Greg Felton
April 28, 2012 at 8:52 am
Excellent reply, Arianda:
You have bested aema, but like the hasbarat, admitted or not, he can never face the vacuity of his own arguments. To argue, as he does, that “anti-Semitism plays a fundamental role” amounts to an admission of intellectual cowardice. Anti-semitism does not exist. It is a made-up shibboleth by a German bigot. The “anti-Semitism” argument and the “Israel has a right to defend itself” canard are the last refuges of the pro-Israel liar.
The more he posts the more ridiculous he looks.
Problem is, he doesn’t care. His job is to exhaust you by making irrelevant comparisons (China, Pakistan) and ignoring your arguments. He is a timewaster. This is how hasbarats suck the life out of intelligent people.
Paul Eisen
April 28, 2012 at 4:00 pm
2Anti-semitism does not exist.”
Oh yes it does. It is a reasonable and understandable reaction to Jewish bad behaviour
aemathisphd
April 28, 2012 at 5:04 pm
“Anti-semitism does not exist.”
Look in a freaking mirror, Greggie.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 7:14 pm
“I would think that any person who finds fault with Israel would find greater fault with other governments and nothings who commit the crimes crimes or greater crimes within the same categories.”
Of course you would. Just substitute “person” with hasbarnik.
Imagine a criminal in court basing his defense against the charges brought against him on whining that there are other criminals to be dealt with, more heinous than he.
“I don’t see you doing that.” Not any time soon. I am not a hasbarnik. If the topic is the Vietnam War, then I’ll talk about that. In the meantime, no matter how much you squirm we are talking about Israel here.
“…straw men: I never denounced anyone for not helping the Jews during the Holocaust.”
The straw man is all yours, whining again that I accuse you unfairly. I was pointing to the tribal mentality in general but if you feel you share it I am not opposing you.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 7:16 pm
I’ve got a pointer for you, Scheisskopf: Find a direct quotation from me anytime you want to accuse me of a position. If you can’t find one, then don’t accuse me.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 7:52 pm
As of today I will “single them out,” savant.
Laura Stuart
April 27, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Is that how your mother taught you to speak to ladies?
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 8:02 pm
As a matter of fact, it’s the way my mother taught me talk, yes. To women? I don’t make that distinction. Sorry.
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 3:10 am
He says he talks like that to men and women alike. I guess he calls his male friends “Butch” too.
Jay Knott
April 27, 2012 at 6:57 pm
“You should have let Jay help you”. Let me help you Ariadna instead. If you read carefully what I write, you’ll see that I don’t think Mathis’s support for anti-fascist hype can be a ‘shield’ against the allegation of support for Zionism. The one reinforces the other.
The reason I seem ‘conciliatory’ toward Andrew M. is because I find he is capable of discussion. I encountered him on Walt’s (of M&W) blog where a REAL hasbarat (and anti-fascist) accused me of H denial. He engaged in discussion rather than shouting insults and taking sides. I agree with him about some things, disagree about others. I don’t think 9/11 was an inside/Israeli job, but I don’t think belief in that ‘theory’ is demented or anti-Semitic, just stupid.
Finally, I agree with your retort to his tribalistic ‘Pole’ remark.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 7:11 pm
My point in the Pole remark was this:
(1) I can understand why Arabs — and specifically Palestinians — have a grudge to bear with Israel. That makes sense. It’s a personal offense in many, if not all, cases. So I don’t wonder why Palestinians target Israel for criticism beyond any other country.
(2) Further, I would understand “searching’s” criticism of Israel better if they took place within the context of criticisms of any country that abuses disproportionate power. But I don’t see him doing this. Rather, what I see is:
(3) He criticizes Israel because it’s a Jewish state, and as such, it fits into his rather narrow paradigm of what Jews are. Thus, he can criticize many countries that did victimize Poland, but only in so far as they are identifiable (to him) as “Jewish”: the Soviets and Nazi Germany (fighting a war started by the Jews, according to him). I’ve also seen him attack Ukrainians for committing war crimes against Poles during WWII. I imagine in his head these were Jews who did this also.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 8:05 pm
“I can understand why Arabs — and specifically Palestinians — have a grudge to bear with Israel. That makes sense. It’s a personal offense in many, if not all, cases. So I don’t wonder why Palestinians target Israel for criticism beyond any other country.”
That’s big of you. Shows just what an open-minded and fair person you are. If you plan to can this for further use my advice would be to delete the emphasis on “personal.” It only jerks you back (like the leash that it is) to the problem of tribal thinking you are trying to wallpaper over.
You need to appear downright human and capable of universal empathy, that’s the idea, ask Jay if you don’t believe me.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 7:20 pm
The history of the bond you forged with aema on other fora is somewhat interesting but not important, except for him.
Can I attribute his heavy reliance on “stupid”/”idiotic” to your patient guiding as well? It is miles better than “anti-semitic” as it shows an intellectual rather than a tribal basis for one’s objection.
Nevertheless he is still unpolished and given to spontaneous opinions –like the one about “why do Poles care?”–your work has just begun.
Jonathon Blakeley
April 27, 2012 at 8:10 pm
You are so funny and sharp, I love that time you did that fake zio-attack on Atzmon.
Your Zioprop comic satire is really cutting through the Hasbara now like nothing else.
There is guy I follow on twitter, you might like him.
@TheDersh
I am not the real Alan Dershowitz. But I’m just as offensive. Watch out, I might plagiarize something you make up. I’m like that.
Keep it up…
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Thanks, Jonathon–I appreciate it
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 11:55 pm
I loved the interview Gilad gave to Cynthia McKinney–saw it on his site–can it be posted here as well? Or was it posted and I missed it?
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 4:14 am
litotes….
THAT”S how a non-zionist/anti-zionist emotes, by mistyping…
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 6:43 pm
I’m confident in stating, at this point, that Mr. Felton has revealed himself to be entirely ignorant of the history he denies, as well as the methodology of history himself. He is clearly very convinced that conviction of belief is the same as evidence.
It is not.
He has offered not a single shred of evidence for his absurd beliefs. Rather, he has chosen to parrot empty slogans and engage in trying to pass off the blatant lies and half-truths of others as some kind of proof.
They are not.
Further, when pressed to provide evidence, he refuses and states that if I don’t know, then he shouldn’t have to tell me. This is beyond simple — it’s downright childish.
My conclusions, and he is welcome to demonstrate otherwise:
(1) He is not terribly bright if he thinks this kind of discourse constitutes a valid argument of any kind.
(2) He is intellectually dishonest — most prominently with himself — if he believes the nonsense he believes and won’t even attempt to familiarize himself with the basic constructs of the historical argument he is denying.
(3) Like many not terribly bright and intellectually dishonest people, he is arrogantly confident that he’s right — to the exclusion of applying any kind of critical thought to his opponent’s point of view or his own.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 7:57 pm
“’I’m confident in stating, at this point, that Mr. Felton has revealed himself to be entirely ignorant …”
Let’s forget false modesty. Your confidence is in no short supply at ANY point and it is known that all those who disagree with you are stupid, ignorant, and dishonest. Unless they are Jews and then it’s even worse.
As for Mr Felton, I have a hunch he has no clue what the Waffen SS uniforms looked like. Need I say more?
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 8:01 pm
“Your confidence is in no short supply at ANY point and it is known that all those who disagree with you are stupid, ignorant, and dishonest.”
Ignorant, many. Dishonest, many.
Stupid? Just you, dear.
“Unless they are Jews and then it’s even worse.”
Oops. You’re right. Yes, if they’re Jews, it is worse. I have no problem saying that.
Greg Felton
April 28, 2012 at 9:02 am
You’re a fine one to talk. You ignore facts that you can’t understand and you hide behind one source. Unlike you I can argue. I don’t blindly worship at the feet of people, the way you do Raul Hilberg, and I don’t throw up irrelevancies to detract from the main point.
Your problem is that you are a zionist and cannot think outside your little zionist box.
You have committed intellectual suicide by trying to concoct sophistries to defend the “6 million” figure. I, though, am not terminally incurious, and have suspicions about the venomous lengths the Kosher Nostra goes to persecute anyone who offers a legitimate challenge to it. This fact, you cannot face up to, and it is this that puts the lie to your Hilberg hagiography.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 10:22 pm
aema: [USA's trade deficit with China is much larger ($300 bilion they "pocket") than US aid to Israel...]
Wow! Just thinking of all those billions NOT going to Israel must make you livid. I know it does me. Who would have even thought there was so much milk oozing from other tits in the emaciated cow.
Worse yet, just thinking how many of those billions are “pocketed” by traitorous Jews like the owners of Wallmart and many other fat cats who direct the “imports” of what they have manufactured there into the US under the ‘most favored nation” status and using the preferential dues allowed to “US-based” companies, instead of increasing the “aid” to the poor little state who is our bastion against terrorism in the MD!
I say, using the “trade deficit with China” to put the American ‘aid’ to Israel “in context” is genius hasbara: it is chutzpah with a certain flair–which is why I don’t think it is your idea. You must have copied it off some hasbara memo.
Don’t feel wronged but I don’t think a hasbara plodder or wikipedia copyist has this flight of imagination in him.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 10:34 pm
“Wow! Just thinking of all those billions NOT going to Israel must make you livid.”
Congratulations! Another straw man.
No, I am not a supporter of aid to Israel, for a variety of reasons.
“Worse yet, just thinking how many of those billions are “pocketed” by traitorous Jews like the owners of Wallmart”
The Walton family isn’t Jewish.
Making a gaffe like that one doesn’t do much to convince people you don’t hate Jews.
“and many other fat cats who direct the “imports” of what they have manufactured there into the US under the ‘most favored nation” status and using the preferential dues allowed to “US-based” companies”
Please cite a single example.
“instead of increasing the “aid” to the poor little state who is our bastion against terrorism in the MD!”
See above.
“I say, using the “trade deficit with China” to put the American ‘aid’ to Israel “in context” is genius hasbara: it is chutzpah with a certain flair–which is why I don’t think it is your idea. You must have copied it off some hasbara memo.
Don’t feel wronged but I don’t think a hasbara plodder or wikipedia copyist has this flight of imagination in him.”
You are truly delusional.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 11:39 pm
Despite your vaunted “indirect” approach, you are not nimble enough to successfully cover your lies with more lies:
“No, I am not a supporter of aid to Israel” just like “I am not a zionist” are both lies.
Of all the reasons I cited as valid for criticizing (“singling out” in your glossary) Israel you found that in each category there are other, bigger offenders, except in one (Gaza) where Israel is in fact not even an offender but just “defending itself.”
The US aid–was the last on my list and you hastened to talk about… trade imbalance with China, which you say again and again amounts to more money than the aid to Israel.
By the same token, the space program may (or may have been) more costly. Not the banks bailouts–those are touchy subjects being money pocketed by 100% supporters of Israel but, say, money spent on ‘reconstruction: in Afghanistan.
There is a very long list of expenditures that an impartial observer like you who is not a zionist and does not support aid to Israel can strain himself to come up with desperate to insist that there is no reason to criticize Israel before criticizing every other state on the planet or to talk about US aid to Israel which you… don’t support.
Not nimble enough.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 11:58 pm
““No, I am not a supporter of aid to Israel” just like “I am not a zionist” are both lies.”
There’s no point in addressing your posts any longer.
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 12:35 am
There’s no point in addressing your posts any longer.”
I hope you remember this discovery and act on it because you’re really tiring and tiresome.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 10:39 pm
By the way, idiot child, it isn’t the trade deficit that’s the issue — that would exist regardless, as China has a much larger economy than we do. It’s that the deficit is as large as it is because of our gov’t giving China most favored nation trade status.
But Jew-haters like you don’t raise your voice because repression is OK with you as long as anyone but Jews do it.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 11:43 pm
For left zionists (to use Jay’s suggested label for you) like you, all repressions are terrible EXCEPT those perpetrated by Jews/Israel.
For someone of your mentality, the only possible world view is yours or the mirror image. Hence: “why do Poles care about Palestinians?”
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 11:07 pm
You will never amount to anything, aema, will never rise in the ranks of hasbara volunteers if you don’t learn to control yourself.
It is obvious that you try, you start with “idiot child” but only 5 lines later you lose it and grab the “Jew-hater” hammer and start flinging it.
You have not earned yourself any respect among your betters in the Hasbara Abteilung Bureau who, I am sure, are following your work and cringing at most of your posts.
In fact you may have flunked entirely so what will be your next station? Some local paper in Paducah?
Free tip: Don’t follow your instinct.
I noticed that every time you mess up, you are compelled to return and make it worse. Try to resist it.
aemathisphd
April 27, 2012 at 11:27 pm
Do you honestly think I’m in the employ of the Israeli gov’t? Are you really under that impression? Be honest.
ariadna
April 27, 2012 at 11:51 pm
“Do you honestly think I’m in the employ of the Israeli gov’t? Are you really under that impression? Be honest.”
Honestly: No. I don’t have the same low opinion of the Israel’s government apparatus as I do of the American one. (I very much doubt you’d find the IDF, for example, caught buying ashtrays for $100 and toilettes for $5,000.)
I have a hunch that the Israeli government would scrutinize stipends paid to propagandists very carefully to make sure they get their shekels’ worth. Especially when they get so much hasbara work for free from free-lancers like you–OK, not top grade but it’s FREE noise.
You are one of the sayanim Shahak talked about– happy to be of service.
I could make a far better hasbarnik out of you if only you’d listen but you have a closed mind, scratch and spit and refuse to listen…
Greg Felton
April 28, 2012 at 9:08 am
Ariadna: Notice how aema throws out so many questions, and personalizes arguments. It’s all standard hasbara, from a non-very-bright hasbarat. His attacks on me are laughable, but I take his refusal to reason as proof he is defeated.
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 6:52 pm
I think you should avoid words like “to win” or “to lose”–they get him very agitated; as it is he is not stable under the best of circumstances.
He needs to lie down for a while. The last thing he needs is the over excitement of thinking up more debates and setting up “rules” for them.
I am not claiming that my advice is nothing but altruism, to save him from an aneurysm blow-up; I admit it is also because all of us need a little rest.
aemathisphd
April 28, 2012 at 5:15 pm
My choice for judge will be Dr. Nicholas Terry, Ph.D., lecturer in history, Exeter University, United Kingdom.
ariadna
April 28, 2012 at 6:54 pm
“it’s not terribly convincing for me to claim victory over Greg Felton”
Not true. You convinced me. I bet I can get together more people who would be ready to encourage you “to claim victory.”
Really, just go and lie down for a while.
Greg Felton
April 29, 2012 at 5:14 am
After mocking my name, and calling me an anti-Semite and “empty headed nitwit,” you now feign respect for me by challenging me to a debate. Given your refusal to acknowledge the conspicuous repetition of “six million” or to do little else other than parrot Raul Hilberg, I doubt that you have any personal understanding of the issue.
More to the point, you committed credibility suicide by resorting to the “anti-Semite” crack. Clearly, you lack the maturity or honesty to engage in debate. The fact that you would challenge me in such a brazen fashion indicates that this is a set-up so that you can rebuild your “reputation” at my expense. I won’t oblige.
As I have said, repeatedly, the issue is not how many Jews died–I couldn’t care less–but rather why Israel and its Lobby persecutes those who challenge the 6-million number, and why that number has repeatedly been invoked by zionists. As a dedicated zionist shill, you cannot or will not address this fact, because it proves that “six million” is a political number and therefore numerically and analytically indefensible.
Finally, your choice of Dr. Nicholas Terry as moderator really betrays the deceit in your motive. He is just as prejudiced as you are, and therefore guaranteed to support you. Anyone who speaks derisively about “Holocaust® denial” has his mind made up and cannot be persuaded by facts or rational argument.
You are a pathetic fraud.
fool me once...
April 29, 2012 at 1:43 pm
Nice one Greg, for refusing to get drawn into the Mathis World of Weird.
You’re right, his “debate challenge” certainly has the whiff of a “set up” about it. Although I must admit, the thought of all the deLibers jumping on the cyber mini-bus for a day trip out to watch Mathis get trounced does sound appealing.
@Mathis – not to disappoint though, I’ve found you another worthy opponent, whom I’m sure would be thrilled to engage with you. This guy also tells it like it is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UndOciFs8HY
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 29, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Great redneck wisdom in that video. There should be this framed quote above every bar where the NASCAR crowd gathers:
“”If you’re God’s chosen people, you shouldn’t need my money, Let God support your ass”
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 29, 2012 at 7:42 pm
Didn’t you notice? You’re alone. Nobody bought tickets to see you again. The lights are being turned off and you’re still jumping about, air boxing and singing falsetto that you fly like a butterfly and sting like a bee. Time to put a bag over it.
Greg Felton
April 30, 2012 at 3:49 am
Blah! Blah! Blah!
Imagining you stamping your feet in impotent rage and squawking “Anti-semite…anti-Semite” like a demented parrot is perversely entertaining.
I have to conclude you’re delusional. You have never addressed the terrorism of the Holocaust® Lobby as I have asked you to do, but I no longer care.
I refuse to waste any more time on you and your zionist apologetics. As Ariadna rightly pointed out, nobody is listening.
End communication.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 4:08 am
Hamassacre
April 30, 2012 at 9:46 am
What is it you expect to achieve here Dr Mathis?
You don’t for one second think you will change the minds of these people, surely?
I’m suspicious of the amount of time you spend commenting here. Since you know you are dealing with an unshakeable Nazi mindset and a gaggle of the most corrupted, sick holocaust deniers, why are you here? Is it in order to prove something about your own position?
Just curious…
Chester
April 30, 2012 at 10:34 am
“What is it you expect to achieve here Dr Mathis?”
Same question to you. It appears that your only ambition is to call people the usual names (Nazi, antisemitic etc), misrepresent them (nobody here has “denied” anything that is historically documented) and derail intelligent conversation (changing the subject).
All of this would probably be OK if you could do it in an amusing way, but you can’t.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 2:32 pm
I certainly don’t intend to change the minds of anyone who posts here and who denies the Holocaust. I intend, rather, to convince the lurker, who ever he or she may be, that the arguments of the deniers are intellectually bankrupt.
I think I made my point with Felton, but I’ll continue to ask what this room, that sixty-nine SS members identified as a gas chamber, as well as four forensic examinations and two documents explicitly, could have been other than a gas chamber.
Call it a hobby.
Greg Felton
April 30, 2012 at 3:22 pm
You made no point.
You are talking to yourself.
Nobody cares about your obsession.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 3:43 pm
You have a point of perfect savant syndrome logic: if he wants you to stop ranting why does he respond by saying “shutupalready”?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 3:26 pm
You call ‘hamasassacre’ a lurker?
He has drunk the CoolAid already. If there’s no one to practice your “hobby” on what will you do? Continue to echo yourself like a village savant?
Ariadna Theokopoulos
April 30, 2012 at 3:35 pm
I think you should worry about the ham-ass-acre’s warning to you:
“I’m suspicious of the amount of time you spend commenting here.”
It sounds like he distrusts you. As the fine psychologist he has already proven himself to be he casts suspicion upon your motivation:
“Is it in order to prove something about your own position?”
I remind you that he is the one that takes names and keeps lists and his pen is poised to add yours. That would be a shame: to be taken for the enemy only through ineptitude of proving one’s bona fides.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Andrew I must give you 10/10 for determination. That being said, we are all really sick of you now, nothing personal but the complaints have reached critical mass, I have tried to ignore them but they are not going away.
I have an idea though… I think you Eldon should go start you own online paper.
Call it “Holocaust Central” and you and Eldon can be in charge, well you, Eldon was an idiot. We might even all come down and troll your website. Let us know when it’s up and we will drop by.
Until then Goodbye.
from all at deLiberation.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 4:54 pm
Really? Goodbye? Damn!
I can only imagine Greg Feldon e-mailing you in panic: “Get rid of him, damn you!”
Enjoy your exercise in Stalinism.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Several people have complained now about you hijacking comments threads to lecture us all. Plus the abuse you regularly hurl at people is not warranted, so all things considered I think it best if you move on. You should try Harry’s place, they are full of anger and bile. You will fit in great.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 5:15 pm
I’m glad to see that gay slurs and accusations of pedophilia go unpunished, though. That’s good.
You are so freaking un-self-aware it’s stunning.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 5:17 pm
that is funny after your Zundel smear, which we deleted
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 5:23 pm
I’m sorry, which smear of Zundel was that? That it was difficult for Paul to type because…? That’s not a gay smear; that’s a comment about Paul’s obeisance to his Nazi masters.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 5:40 pm
Look Andrew, You dont even know when you are being abusive, you are so used to it. You are not the abuser, you are the vicitm, I almost feel sorry for you..
I know this may come as a shocker to you. Paul is not a Nazi & We don’t all hate Jews. I know it is shocking, but we just don’t. You should try hanging out on a more right wing kind of hate-ful website where maybe they do. As such, you projecting all your fears on us is not really getting us anywhere.
aemathisphd
April 30, 2012 at 5:42 pm
I have been on such sites.
I see no qualitative difference between them and your site.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Hmmn really. My Mother used to say something to me, Andrew and I think I will share it with you.
Chester
April 30, 2012 at 10:45 am
to the moderator:
I am in favour of free speech but I think gratuitous abuse of other posters – i.e. trolling – is unacceptable.
Just my two cents.
deLiberation
April 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm
Thankyou for you feedback, duly noted and acted upon. Let me know if there are any other trolls dragging us down.